SRAM 2019?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Hexsense
Posts: 557
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:09 pm
Can someone explain in a non-bs way?
Sram use XDR which is 1.8mm wider than XD. XD and XDR are built to allow smaller than 11t cog. Which is too small for current 11 speed free hub.
XD has standard MTB free hub width. Standard MTB free hub width is the same as road 10 speed. MTB when go from 10 to 11 speed they leave big cog overhang on top of spokes. While road cassette is too small to do the same trick, so road cassette needed extra space when moving from 10 to 11 speed while MTB didn't.

In conclusion, XDR cassette width is as wide as our current 11 speed road cassette. And Sram open the standard for everyone to produce XD/XDR free hub body. So every hub manufacturer should be able to produce after market free hub body to support XD/XDR. XD cassette (MTB) can fit on XDR free hub body with 1.8mm spacer to take away the extra width.

Image
Shimano do their own thing called Micro Spline. They justify the reason by saying that XD body require expensive cassette construction (one piece body). See picture above, those small cogs overhang free hub body and bearings. And where do most cog grip to the free hub body? It clearly made for one piece cassette. Shimano want most if not every cassette to be just a simple thin stamped metal and spacers to keep cost down. So they introduce Micro Spline. Which has free hub body all the way to support the cassette.
Issue is that, Shimano hold tight control of who they allow to use Micro Spline. Right now it's Shimano, DT Swiss and Industry Nine.
Image

by Weenie


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Miller
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Location: Reading, UK

by Miller

Anything that would go against Shimano dominance is good, they are now far too dominant in road cycling.

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FIJIGabe
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by FIJIGabe

2lo8 wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:47 pm
When SRAM entered the market, they just hopped on the Shimano bandwagon, since Shimano was the dominant player, and the standard was no longer strictly controlled by Shimano for whatever reason.
SRAM had to sue Shimano in 1990, and as part of the settlement, they were allowed to use Shimano's freehub standard.
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FIJIGabe
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by FIJIGabe

Miller wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:47 pm
Anything that would go against Shimano dominance is good, they are now far too dominant in road cycling.
Competition creates innovation. That said, they're an also-ran in the mountain bike field, and SRAM is very competitive in CX (at least in the amateur ranks in the US).
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2lo8
Posts: 471
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:32 am

by 2lo8

FIJIGabe wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:57 pm
2lo8 wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:47 pm
When SRAM entered the market, they just hopped on the Shimano bandwagon, since Shimano was the dominant player, and the standard was no longer strictly controlled by Shimano for whatever reason.
SRAM had to sue Shimano in 1990, and as part of the settlement, they were allowed to use Shimano's freehub standard.
I was going to mention something about a lawsuit, but I couldn't remember the details and some more recent German ptatent dispute popped up in google so I thought I misremembered. Thanks for that.
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FIJIGabe
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by FIJIGabe

No worries!
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Ritxis
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

Hexsense wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:28 pm
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:09 pm
Can someone explain in a non-bs way?
Sram use XDR which is 1.8mm wider than XD. XD and XDR are built to allow smaller than 11t cog. Which is too small for current 11 speed free hub.
XD has standard MTB free hub width. Standard MTB free hub width is the same as road 10 speed. MTB when go from 10 to 11 speed they leave big cog overhang on top of spokes. While road cassette is too small to do the same trick, so road cassette needed extra space when moving from 10 to 11 speed while MTB didn't.

In conclusion, XDR cassette width is as wide as our current 11 speed road cassette. And Sram open the standard for everyone to produce XD/XDR free hub body. So every hub manufacturer should be able to produce after market free hub body to support XD/XDR. XD cassette (MTB) can fit on XDR free hub body with 1.8mm spacer to take away the extra width.

Image
Shimano do their own thing called Micro Spline. They justify the reason by saying that XD body require expensive cassette construction (one piece body). See picture above, those small cogs overhang free hub body and bearings. And where do most cog grip to the free hub body? It clearly made for one piece cassette. Shimano want most if not every cassette to be just a simple thin stamped metal and spacers to keep cost down. So they introduce Micro Spline. Which has free hub body all the way to support the cassette.
Issue is that, Shimano hold tight control of who they allow to use Micro Spline. Right now it's Shimano, DT Swiss and Industry Nine.
Image

The Micospline it's not really new......It is more an update of the Capreo freehub

Monkeyfudger
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:26 pm

by Monkeyfudger

The problem for us tinkerers is we’re a niche, it would seem most people buy a bike and ride it ‘till they’re bored of it then get a new one, were as we love swapping and upgrading parts which is kinda just not compatible with the bike industry anymore.

I’d love to know who these people are that buy £10k bikes, how long they keep them and how much they lose on ‘em after 2/3 years. Makes my car look cheap.

liam7020
Posts: 895
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:04 am

by liam7020

Monkeyfudger wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:11 pm
The problem for us tinkerers is we’re a niche, it would seem most people buy a bike and ride it ‘till they’re bored of it then get a new one, were as we love swapping and upgrading parts which is kinda just not compatible with the bike industry anymore.

I’d love to know who these people are that buy £10k bikes, how long they keep them and how much they lose on ‘em after 2/3 years. Makes my car look cheap.
Well it's the "new" cyclists who are usually a fountain of tech knowledge but can't turn a spanner in anger and flee to the LBS at the merest hint of a squeaky chain! Loads of them on this forum methinks but the bike industry love 'em to death cos they're readily accepting that the next big thing is essential to their participation and enjoyment of riding the bike, when in actual fact it's all BS and a moolah parting exercise!!
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mattyNor
Posts: 307
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:18 pm

by mattyNor

Just got word that new vs old Etap parts will not be compatible, so keep an eye out for Etap groups for 30% off

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RocketRacing
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 2:43 am

by RocketRacing

mattyNor wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:11 pm
Just got word that new vs old Etap parts will not be compatible, so keep an eye out for Etap groups for 30% off

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I already got my etap wifli at 30% off about a month ago. The sram distributors knew something we did not. I figured 12 speed was on the way, maybe with more blacked out derailers and marginal weight savings, and did not care, so jumped...

thePrince
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:09 am

by thePrince

I’m honestly disappointed. SRAM sat on mech for years to release eTap, which is significantly better than Di2 or EPS. Wired electronic shifting removes zero cables and adds battery complexity. Wireless is so much better, a real innovation.

But for SRAM to go from 11 to 12. So what. So I have smaller front rings because I can have a smaller cog in the cassette? Even though bigger rings in the front = better efficiency. Cmon. A jump from 11 to 14 is a huge innovation...don’t need a 2x setup anymore, can have same range and under 10% shift jumps, while running bigger front ring for better efficiency. In a 2x11 setup does anybody really think, what I need is two more options. Sure, you picked you the wrong cassette and want two more climbing options.

I’m tempted to try this as a 1x setup for crits and fringe road racing. But maybe I’ll just stick to my 10 speed SRAM mech. Really struggling with what the actual advantage is. Maybe the clutch in the RD is better than my 10 speed. But I’m wondering if that is anything more than a stronger spring.

2lo8
Posts: 471
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:32 am

by 2lo8

thePrince wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:40 am
But for SRAM to go from 11 to 12. So what... A jump from 11 to 14 is a huge innovation...
Why would you expect them to be able to jump from 11 to 14 in one go? It's not like they pick a number out of a hat and just make it. The number of speeds is always incremental. People were saying the same exact thing when they introduced 6/7 speed (8/9 gets a pass because that's when integrated shifters appeared) or when Campy introduced 10/11 speed. It is in fact an engineering challenge to make chains thinner without making too many compromises and keeping the chain strong enough for real world use. It's not simply a matter of scaling the width of everything to make it fit.
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Bassett
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:41 am

by Bassett

I think I will be stopping with 10/ 11speed
I can see know good reason to go 12 speed until I cannot get cheaper 10/11 speed parts
I will probably get another Etap 11 speed set .
I’m all for innovation but I feel we are just being had for mugs with a lot of cycling stuff over the last few years

Shrike
Posts: 1386
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

How is SRAM developing 12 speed wireless groupsets related to you being taken for a mug? :?

by Weenie


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