SRAM 2019?

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r3m
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:57 pm
Location: Aix en Provence

by r3m

:shock: :shock: :shock: :cry: :cry: WTF?

r3m
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:57 pm
Location: Aix en Provence

by r3m

Brenton Jones win with the etap group today. I cant see if it's the 12v or 11v.

https://twitter.com/TeamDelko_MP_/statu ... 3733654528

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Ritxis
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

r3m wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:59 pm
Brenton Jones win with the etap group today. I cant see if it's the 12v or 11v.

https://twitter.com/TeamDelko_MP_/statu ... 3733654528
11 speed

vanmatthew
Posts: 126
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:20 am

by vanmatthew

I just moved from Di2 to eTap so I really hope I can just upgrade the shifter firmware and just get a new RD. Shimano allowed users to do that when they went from 10->11.

ancker
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:29 pm

by ancker

vanmatthew wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:40 pm
I just moved from Di2 to eTap so I really hope I can just upgrade the shifter firmware and just get a new RD. Shimano allowed users to do that when they went from 10->11.
The shifters have no firmware. Well, none that is likely that interesting.
The RD is the brain. When it receives a signal from the right shifter, the RD moves outward, left shifter, inward. Simultaneous (within a margin), swap the FD.
The shifters don't know anything about chain position or anything else in the system. They just send "shift now" signals.
The new shifters might be different with BTLE/ANT+ or something to send chain position to a head unit. I suspect the RD is still the brain.

The upgrade/firmware question is two-fold:
1) Will existing 11sp RDs be upgradeable to shift 12sp?
- In theory possible, unsure how the servos are set up. Might be physically limited to moving at 11sp spacing.
- Not sure how 11sp vs 12sp FD shifting will differ. Likely not by much.
- Will SRAM cannibalize their new group by allowing this? Will this come at a cost?
2) Will existing shifters (and FD) be allowed to pair with new RDs?
- I assume there will be a RD only purchase option to instantly take your group to 12sp.
- But who would do that for $450+ if you can (pay, hopefully much less to) upgrade your existing RD.

I personally think there will be some level of backwards compatibility. Like the old shifters will talk to the new mechs, but you can't mix and match RD/FD. New shifters will only work with new RD/FD due to new protocol or something. This will incentivize upgrading your full group or putting a completely new group on a new build rather than buying some used/some new, but cut back on customer complaints of having to buy new shifters that are probably 99% identical to the old ones.

(NOTE: The FCC filings posted above might answer a lot of these questions, I have not read them yet.)

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I have extreme doubts about there being any upgrade path. Even though the shifters are just momentary switches with minimal brains, they are still paired with a private key. The pairing process is the barrier to upgradeability. Even if you could run a new RD with your old eTap build, you'd have to buy a new cassette, crankset/rings, chain anyway. In my case, I'd probably buy the FD too with the hope that SRAM has gotten rid of the overshift gremlins in the previous eTap FD.

At that point, the shifters would be the only thing left from my old eTap setup anyway.

ancker
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:29 pm

by ancker

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:10 pm
I have extreme doubts about there being any upgrade path. Even though the shifters are just momentary switches with minimal brains, they are still paired with a private key. The pairing process is the barrier to upgradeability. Even if you could run a new RD with your old eTap build, you'd have to buy a new cassette, crankset/rings, chain anyway. In my case, I'd probably buy the FD too with the hope that SRAM has gotten rid of the overshift gremlins in the previous eTap FD.

At that point, the shifters would be the only thing left from my old eTap setup anyway.
Hypothesizing:
RD: $550
Cassette: $100
Rings: $75
Chain: $50
Total $775. Still a LOT cheaper than a full group. Especially since you can probably offload your old RD for $300+.

It gets really interesting if there is an App/speed selection option. Simply getting a new RD with a clutch would be a huge upgrade for gravel/cx 1x11 setups. Upgrading to 12sp takes a new freehub body, cassette, chain, and maybe chainring. Instant upgrade with the clutch, future upgrade to 12sp later.

Karvalo
Posts: 3444
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:10 pm
I have extreme doubts about there being any upgrade path. Even though the shifters are just momentary switches with minimal brains, they are still paired with a private key. The pairing process is the barrier to upgradeability.
Sorry, I don't quite get your thought process? You can buy an eTap rear mech on its own (or as part of a wifli upgrade kit) and pair it with your existing shifters. Why shouldn't that be possible with the new Gen?

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LeDuke
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Location: Front Range, CO

by LeDuke

Karvalo wrote:
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:10 pm
I have extreme doubts about there being any upgrade path. Even though the shifters are just momentary switches with minimal brains, they are still paired with a private key. The pairing process is the barrier to upgradeability.
Sorry, I don't quite get your thought process? You can buy an eTap rear mech on its own (or as part of a wifli upgrade kit) and pair it with your existing shifters. Why shouldn't that be possible with the new Gen?
I think he wants to be able to run 12s on his 11s shifters with new RD and a software upgrade.


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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Yeah, we’re talking about the remote possibility mixing the 12spd RD with 11spd shifters and FD. Reminder that in eTap the RD is the master controller everything else is paired to.

Karvalo
Posts: 3444
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

LeDuke wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:15 pm
Karvalo wrote:
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:10 pm
I have extreme doubts about there being any upgrade path. Even though the shifters are just momentary switches with minimal brains, they are still paired with a private key. The pairing process is the barrier to upgradeability.
Sorry, I don't quite get your thought process? You can buy an eTap rear mech on its own (or as part of a wifli upgrade kit) and pair it with your existing shifters. Why shouldn't that be possible with the new Gen?
I think he wants to be able to run 12s on his 11s shifters with new RD and a software upgrade.
Yeah, I know - I was asking why it is that pairing them would be the specific obstacle that couldn't be overcome with a firmware upgrade, because currently you can pair different rear mechs to the rest of your groupset.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Because pairing is the only aspect of the shifters that prevents interoperability and SRAM is unlikely to give you the option.

Alpine318is
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:30 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by Alpine318is

Unless SRAM hates making money I highly doubt they will be compatible, even though I'm sure it would be super easy
2018 Specialized S-Works Tarmac
SRAM Etap
ENVE 4.5

2018 Bianchi Infinito CV
SRAM Etap
ENVE Classics 45

2016 Cervelo P2
Ultegra 6800 Di2
ENVE 6.7

Vermu
Posts: 345
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:39 am

by Vermu

Alpine318is wrote:Unless SRAM hates making money I highly doubt they will be compatible, even though I'm sure it would be super easy
Pity if they don’t. Would’ve huge opportunity to show that they care about the customer.
As shimano is doing the opposite


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Seedster
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:05 pm

by Seedster

SRAM wont be around for much longer if they cut profits by undermining new product launches.

They can show care for their customers in other ways with after sales support, organizing group events, etc.

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