SRAM 2019?

[thePrince]

I'd reluctantly (meaning if I was forced to choose between discs or 1x) use discs before I went to a Road 1x and 10 or, god help us, 9 tooth cogs. But the whole Road 1x thing just doesn't concern me in the least. It's a non starter on the road. Let a few people jump all over it because it's new, they don't think through things, and they like SRAM. The novelty will wear off and they will be back. It's like an annoying fly in the house at this point. It will die on its own.

I couldn't disagree more. I know you'll respond with technical reasons why 1x14 or 1x15 isn't possible. It is, and it will happen. No need for a FD.

But for the sake of argument, let's say we don't ever progress beyone x12 (ignore x13 already out there). I plan on racing about 60-70 times this year...and I can count on zero fingers how many times I need a 2x setup. Road, crit, CX, gravel. In fact, I'll do 1x10, just like I did last season. Includes races like Tulsa Tough, climbing Cry Baby at 115rpm.

What's more telling is if you go 1x12 with SRAM...2 less effective gears than a 2x11, but same number of shifts with a jump over 10% and the exact same high/low range as a 53/39 x 11-28.

I have 2x10 setups, SRAM and Campy both, for training so it's not about "liking SRAM". And it's not that I "don't think through things". I plan my race season months in advance so I know what I need out of a race bike. And when I get down to brass tax, it ain't 2x. Road racing is all but dead in the US, especially races featuring conditions requiring a 36t x 32t setup.

Just like the rim vs disc discussion, 1x setups have very real applications even if you don't like it. I'll choose 1x vs 2x, rim vs disc, carbon vs alu, full-suspension vs aero road frame, etc depending on what I need out of the machine. Choice is great.

[Karvalo]

Because pairing is the only aspect of the shifters that prevents interoperability and SRAM is unlikely to give you the option.

Right - so it's not really anything to do with pairing per se, you're just saying you don't think SRAM will want to facilitate it?

[Karvalo]

SRAM wont be around for much longer if they cut profits by undermining new product launches.

Shimano have always allowed existing DI2 shifters to be used with new mechs and it isn't doing them any harm

[henau212]

I have extreme doubts about there being any upgrade path. Even though the shifters are just momentary switches with minimal brains, they are still paired with a private key. The pairing process is the barrier to upgradeability. Even if you could run a new RD with your old eTap build, you'd have to buy a new cassette, crankset/rings, chain anyway. In my case, I'd probably buy the FD too with the hope that SRAM has gotten rid of the overshift gremlins in the previous eTap FD.

At that point, the shifters would be the only thing left from my old eTap setup anyway.

Hypothesizing:
RD: $550
Cassette: $100
Rings: $75
Chain: $50
Total $775. Still a LOT cheaper than a full group. Especially since you can probably offload your old RD for $300+.

It gets really interesting if there is an App/speed selection option. Simply getting a new RD with a clutch would be a huge upgrade for gravel/cx 1x11 setups. Upgrading to 12sp takes a new freehub body, cassette, chain, and maybe chainring. Instant upgrade with the clutch, future upgrade to 12sp later.

Where are you getting a red cassette for $100? Last time I payed like $250 and a newly released casette will definately not be cheaper. And there will definately be no alternative option in the beginning..

[vanmatthew]

There's still plenty of money to be made even if they allow the old shifters to be compatible. Cassette, chain, RD, free hub, etc. I think faster adoption and the I want peer pressure might be a nice marketing move as well. All we can do is wait and see.

[Jugi]

Right - so it's not really anything to do with pairing per se, you're just saying you don't think SRAM will want to facilitate it?

If I understood correctly, the FCC filing indicates they have made changes to the communication hardware. That may rule out pairing with older generation components.

One way to go forward could be to have limited compatibility for the legacy components, ie. keep the shifters and blipbox pairable but with a limited feature set (no new features, if there will be any in the new groupset).

[kwakekeham]

I wouldn't be too certain about no backwards compatibility.

So in the original FCC for etap it calls the transmission protocol Zigbee, which it is, just with their own secret sauce. On the marketing page it's called Airea. Old uses AT86RF231 transcievers, AXS uses AT86RF233 which are effectively drop in replacements. Almost identical with exactly the same pinout, power, registers, and communications as far as I can see from a quick view of the datasheet.

Now SRAM AXS has it's filings calling it specifically Airea and BLE (and ANT+ for the read derailleur only) with one test for each. However, it calls it SRAMlink inside the document filed under the name "Airea" and it's ratios of on time to period to duty cycle is the same as the Etap filings but the specific numbers aren't (1ms for all AXS, ver 10ms for all eTap). However, this is usually a simplified "Screamer" that powers the radio on and off like normal operation so the payload doesn't affect it.

So we have a semi-consistent name "airea" that is referenced in both. The difference will be the AXS system can configure via BLE making it's pairing process much easier via it's unreleased app.

One thing to keep in mind, that DI2 has crazy cross and backwards compatibility. It's a keep the fringes happy technique. The sub 1% who wants to do use their 6700 with XTR thumb shifters and 9100 climb shifters can with the r8000 derailleurs don't complain while 99% of their sales are OE bikes who are buying pretty much the whole groupset except from brands that try and save money with FSA cranks or in house cranks. It's the only cost cutting they have since they can't do it with the brakes anymore like cable actuated or rim. So making a tiny group happy losses them such little money compared to the good will they gain.

[wheelsONfire]

kwake, you lost me a bit on the way.... What is the difference then (Sram Etap), as for me/you/ us as users?
Is it just, well now you have 12 speed instead of 11?

[StrapOn]

I wouldn't be too certain about no backwards compatibility.

One thing to keep in mind, that DI2 has crazy cross and backwards compatibility. It's a keep the fringes happy technique. The sub 1% who wants to do use their 6700 with XTR thumb shifters and 9100 climb shifters can with the r8000 derailleurs don't complain while 99% of their sales are OE bikes who are buying pretty much the whole groupset except from brands that try and save money with FSA cranks or in house cranks. It's the only cost cutting they have since they can't do it with the brakes anymore like cable actuated or rim. So making a tiny group happy losses them such little money compared to the good will they gain.

From a marketing point this makes sense. People like yourselves probably make up such a small group in the market sales wise however, the amount of advise we give to people buying bikes can’t be ignored. Keeping the fringes happy probably leads to greater sales. Also the ability to just buy rd, cassette and chain may lead to people upgrading a generation earlier.

[ancker]

Where are you getting a red cassette for $100? Last time I payed like $250 and a newly released casette will definately not be cheaper. And there will definately be no alternative option in the beginning..

I'm assuming there will be 12sp mechanical versions of Force/Rival at least very soon after 12sp eTap/Red.

[Karvalo]

They did release 11sp Red and Force at exactly the same time, so quite possibly. Unless they're going to stick with eTap 12 first, and mechanical later.

[ooo]

01.01.2019 sram etap 1x12 @LaurensSweeck (Stevens Super Prestige), Pauwels Sauzen Vastgoedservice Cycling Team
this is 3rd bike, previous 2 bikes - @WoutvanAert (Stevens Super Prestige) and @JeremyPowers (Fuji Altimira CX)

Zoom (Full - https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... 8#p1453258 ):

[themidge]

More pictures and info from the Tour Down Under
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/art ... ted-53213/
Those derailleurs look unnecessarily big to me, and that chainring design is really awful looking, but I suppose the proof will be in the functionality.

[aeroisnteverything]

Until they leak out system weight, I declare myself uninterested. I might get even less interested after I know the weight as I don't see how 12sp can be lighter on the whole than 11sp, and this is not a place I want to pork up.

[liam7020]

Two things. I have the current Etap and it ain't the prettiest so I had hoped that the 2nd iteration may at least improve in the aesthetics stakes. But no, SRAM have excelled themselves by producing the most damn awful, ugliest, industrial-looking drive train imaginable - even the chain is pitiful looking.

Secondly, for a pro bike that's a very dirty looking drive train!