SRAM 2019?
Moderator: robbosmans
BMC, Bora, FDJ, Scott, LotteNL, Sky, Sunweb and Trek are directly sponsored by Shimano groupset-wise, while wheelset-wise it's 5. Note each sponsorship varies by team, so some of them are allowed to use non-Shimano powermeter and some even use Shimano Pro accessories.
Anyway, not sure it has something to do with the MTB market, or even the Road market.
5 or 6 years ago so many pro teams were using Red groupsets but were they sold that well compared to Today when only Katusha and Fortuneo are using eTap?
Anyway, not sure it has something to do with the MTB market, or even the Road market.
5 or 6 years ago so many pro teams were using Red groupsets but were they sold that well compared to Today when only Katusha and Fortuneo are using eTap?
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I guess they will wait for Shimano here - they are too small for own standards and I think the compatibility with Shimano freehubs is a good thing.
And that's why I think they should be more worried about M9100 and soon M8100 taking chunks of their OE MTB sales than optimistic about reclaiming the road market.TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:42 pmbut as long as SRAM can continue to offer better OE deals with fresh product, I can easily see them boosting their 2x market share three-fold or more. (It wouldn’t take much because that share is currently tiny.)
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Totally agree re geo blocking. Can't get full range of Sram here and cost is two to three times the online price. Happy to support LBS but within reason...
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Was talking to my LBS this AM about groupsets... they said possibly Force Etap is coming as well as update to red... also said Shimano was planning a wireless version of Di2 in about 1.5 years, but expect it "much earlier" with the pressure coming down from all the manufacturers and now 12 becoming the new... none of this is confirmed.. only rumors..
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So that LBS knows nothing, basically. They aren't aware of SRAM's battery patent preventing wireless Di2...or they really think that dynamo pulley wheel and "automatic" winding FD tech is going to happen.
I can see a situation where Shimano does go wireless, but it would involve either buying/licensing patents (Hi, FSA!), or creating their own wireless protocol, wholly unrelated to what SRAM uses. Either way, it's a lot of techonological investment for minimal gain. It's not like Shimano's losing a lot of market share to SRAM/Campag in the electronic realm, so why reinvent the wheel?
I really want to see what SRAM comes up with in the 12-speed department, because you know Shimano's going to release 9200 w/in the next year, and that's going to kill whatever advantage the competitors will have. I just hope Shimano doesn't screw us all over by requiring their special 12-speed freehub, but that might be where SRAM corners the market, making XD-R available for a small licensing fee, so most wheel manufacturers have access to 12-speed freehubs, without forcing consumers to have to completely replace hubs/wheels.
I really want to see what SRAM comes up with in the 12-speed department, because you know Shimano's going to release 9200 w/in the next year, and that's going to kill whatever advantage the competitors will have. I just hope Shimano doesn't screw us all over by requiring their special 12-speed freehub, but that might be where SRAM corners the market, making XD-R available for a small licensing fee, so most wheel manufacturers have access to 12-speed freehubs, without forcing consumers to have to completely replace hubs/wheels.
Madone 9 - https://bit.ly/2Nqedbn
Emonda SLR - https://bit.ly/2UK5FP8
Crockett - https://bit.ly/2Xem4sk
Emonda SLR - https://bit.ly/2UK5FP8
Crockett - https://bit.ly/2Xem4sk
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It's not about transmission protocol or frequency modulation. Nobody wants to use an open protocol for stuff like this anyway.
SRAM's patent on derailleur mounted batteries means everyone else has to run wires anyway. Running wires means you may as well have a single large battery connecting the high-drain components like the two derailleurs. This is precisely why FSA WE has wireless transmission from the shifters, but both derailleurs are connected via wires to a central battery. This is why Di2 and EPS did not immediately go wireless two years ago.
SRAM's patent on derailleur mounted batteries means everyone else has to run wires anyway. Running wires means you may as well have a single large battery connecting the high-drain components like the two derailleurs. This is precisely why FSA WE has wireless transmission from the shifters, but both derailleurs are connected via wires to a central battery. This is why Di2 and EPS did not immediately go wireless two years ago.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Madone 9 - https://bit.ly/2Nqedbn
Emonda SLR - https://bit.ly/2UK5FP8
Crockett - https://bit.ly/2Xem4sk
Emonda SLR - https://bit.ly/2UK5FP8
Crockett - https://bit.ly/2Xem4sk
I have a hard time believing that SRAM's patents are that actionable.
The idea of attaching a battery to something that normally takes a wired power source isn't particularly innovative.
I suspect if Shimano (and their mountain of lawyers) wanted to challenge it, they wouldn't have much trouble doing so.
The more likely scenario is that they see little benefit in re-engineering a design that is doing extremely well for them. Their derailleurs are super slick and tidy due to the brains and power bits being elsewhere in the system. I can see a potential for FSA style wireless shifters, but the mechs will likely stay cabled to a central battery.
This patent application from Shimano seems to back up my hunch. Wireless Shifters: https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/art ... ess-51967/
I absolutely love both of my eTap groups, but the Di2 groups, especially 9100 are much nicer in the asthetics department.
The idea of attaching a battery to something that normally takes a wired power source isn't particularly innovative.
I suspect if Shimano (and their mountain of lawyers) wanted to challenge it, they wouldn't have much trouble doing so.
The more likely scenario is that they see little benefit in re-engineering a design that is doing extremely well for them. Their derailleurs are super slick and tidy due to the brains and power bits being elsewhere in the system. I can see a potential for FSA style wireless shifters, but the mechs will likely stay cabled to a central battery.
This patent application from Shimano seems to back up my hunch. Wireless Shifters: https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/art ... ess-51967/
I absolutely love both of my eTap groups, but the Di2 groups, especially 9100 are much nicer in the asthetics department.
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ancker wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:47 pmI have a hard time believing that SRAM's patents are that actionable.
The idea of attaching a battery to something that normally takes a wired power source isn't particularly innovative.
I suspect if Shimano (and their mountain of lawyers) wanted to challenge it, they wouldn't have much trouble doing so.
The more likely scenario is that they see little benefit in re-engineering a design that is doing extremely well for them. Their derailleurs are super slick and tidy due to the brains and power bits being elsewhere in the system. I can see a potential for FSA style wireless shifters, but the mechs will likely stay cabled to a central battery.
This patent application from Shimano seems to back up my hunch. Wireless Shifters: https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/art ... ess-51967/
I absolutely love both of my eTap groups, but the Di2 groups, especially 9100 are much nicer in the asthetics department.
Shimano has patented a dynamo pulley wheel to generate electricity for its rear derailleurs and also an automatic "winding" method for its front derailleurs. They wouldn't be resorting to this if they thought they could challenge the SRAM patent.
I imagine Shimano and/or Campagnolo will both just quietly license the design method from SRAM in the next couple years.
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I mentioned this in the SRAM Etap app forum, but new information recently filed.
There are in the FCC filing 3 shifters and 2 derailleurs. Considering that SRAM is hardcore 1x why is there a front derailleur? Why is there three shifter types, two designated as Left or Right and one that only showed up last week as "universal". All seems to point to updates to the road groupset even though there are pictures of the MTB etap. Also could imply that the the MTB derailleur is just the road assembly + a differnet cage / mechanicals including a clutch derailleur.
Keep in mind this also implies, like Ultegra and Dura-ace that the "guts" are the same because there isn't any other new derailleurs listed that haven't been already released for sale filed. So nothing that changes electronics or antenna related (any component that you think doesn't change requires permissive change, none of which are filed). So like Ultegra and Dura-ace the motor performance is identical. The difference would be minimal based on shift fork and bearings maybe. They could change the mechanicals though without affecting or needing new FCC filings.
So Force and Etap (Red?) looks like coming, but also same guts.
Everything has Ariea (priopeitary SRAM based on zigbee chips) and BLE. The rear derailleur also has ANT+. So implies configuration via app, shifting via Ariea, and ANT+ for head units. Crazy number of radios since Airea and BLE I don't believe share a radio like BLE and ANT+ can -- though never know.
Pictures of shifters lift on the FCC just in time for Christmas. Derailleur pictures lift in the new year. So I'd expect an announcement between now and Christmas or else they'd have to do what Wahoo did with the Rival watch and pull the FCC filing the day they go public requiring a re-file before selling.
There are in the FCC filing 3 shifters and 2 derailleurs. Considering that SRAM is hardcore 1x why is there a front derailleur? Why is there three shifter types, two designated as Left or Right and one that only showed up last week as "universal". All seems to point to updates to the road groupset even though there are pictures of the MTB etap. Also could imply that the the MTB derailleur is just the road assembly + a differnet cage / mechanicals including a clutch derailleur.
Keep in mind this also implies, like Ultegra and Dura-ace that the "guts" are the same because there isn't any other new derailleurs listed that haven't been already released for sale filed. So nothing that changes electronics or antenna related (any component that you think doesn't change requires permissive change, none of which are filed). So like Ultegra and Dura-ace the motor performance is identical. The difference would be minimal based on shift fork and bearings maybe. They could change the mechanicals though without affecting or needing new FCC filings.
So Force and Etap (Red?) looks like coming, but also same guts.
Everything has Ariea (priopeitary SRAM based on zigbee chips) and BLE. The rear derailleur also has ANT+. So implies configuration via app, shifting via Ariea, and ANT+ for head units. Crazy number of radios since Airea and BLE I don't believe share a radio like BLE and ANT+ can -- though never know.
Pictures of shifters lift on the FCC just in time for Christmas. Derailleur pictures lift in the new year. So I'd expect an announcement between now and Christmas or else they'd have to do what Wahoo did with the Rival watch and pull the FCC filing the day they go public requiring a re-file before selling.
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