Campag Super Record rear derailleur shifting woes

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c60rider
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by c60rider

Calnago wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:40 pm
Wait! You’re using pre-2015 levers with post 2015 rear derailleur?? Did I miss that when you were describing your setup. I don’t know that they are even compatible, right? They might be, but I’ve never tried it. For sure you couldn’t do it with the front derailleur and left shifter. And I’ve never had occasion to try a pre-2015 right lever with a post 2015 rear mech.

I think you may be running down a rabbit hole here. Have fun. I’ve said this before... I will spend as long as it takes to get a bike dialed so long as all components are compatible, but I won’t spend more than 5 minutes on a system using components never meant to be used with each other once I get things anywhere close to “well, it works, kinda sorta”.

But you do raise an issue I’ve not really spent much time with, and it would be nice to know what the specific reason is that makes the older levers incompatible with the post 2015 rear derailleur. Slightly different parallelogram?... slightly different cable pull?... I don’t know. The front incompatibility is obvious however.

I can, however, appreciate Wiggles response at this point.
Nooooo not using that!!! That's what their supplier says I'm using. How they worked that out I've no idea. It's all post-2015 SR throughout! Their response coming back as that is what makes me think this is going to be a long struggle.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Ok, well that's just a ridiculous reply from them then... and you made it clear to them that all your components are post 2015 design? They must have somehow interpreted what you said differently. This is such a rare issue, and I really do think it boils down to a production issue that was short lived (I have no way of confirming that however), where some cages ended up with more "twist" than others, so I just moved on from it with the knowledge that if I ever come across another situation like this then at least I have the knowledge to know what it "might" be, as a last resort. And my solution would be to simply replace the cage only. If you can convince them that you indeed have all the current components, ask them if they'd just send you a replacement cage (even from a Chorus derailleur, it's stiffer)... and try that. I'll bet your problem's gone. That's what I did with Campy USA... they may have warrantied the whole derailleur, but I just said... "look, I know it's the cage... do you have a spare cage you could send me to expedite this whole thing", and they were quite accommodating. And it's been fine ever since, after simply replacing the cage.

I'm glad I saw your last post, because I was about to have a coffee then go actually try a pre-2015 front shifter with a post 2015 rear derailleur. Inquiring minds and all... :)

@c60rider: I just went back to your original post to make sure I wasn't missing anything and noticed you said the derailleur was actually hitting the spokes at one point. Are you sure your hanger is perfectly aligned and did you check it with a proper tool? Can't emphasize this step enough and it's why I always have to ask. Not saying that's the crux of your issue here, but it's one thing that could make it worse actually, in a big way. The pics you show of the lower jockey wheel being closer to one side of the chain than the other is quite normal depending on which cog it's on. If its cross chained small/small it's going to be towards the outside due to the angle the chain is coming from, and vice versa if the angle the chain is coming into the lower cog is reversed (big/big for example). The problem, shown with a couple pics from my other thread reposted 4 posts abovce this one, is when the pulley will actually jump over the plates causing the chain to derail on the inside. Did you ever experience this? And of course the noise. But looking at your pics, I'm not even sure your derailleur hanger is in perfect alignment, and it needs to be. But I think I've given all I've got here.
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by Weenie


c60rider
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by c60rider

Calnago wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:02 pm

@c60: I just went back to your original post to make sure I wasn't missing anything and noticed you said the derailleur was actually hitting the spokes at one point. Are you sure your hanger is perfectly aligned and did you check it with a proper tool? Can't emphasize this step enough and it's why I always have to ask. Not saying that's the crux of your issue here, but it's one thing that could make it worse actually, in a big way. The pics you show of the lower jockey wheel being closer to one side of the chain than the other is quite normal depending on which cog it's on. If its cross chained small/small it's going to be towards the outside due to the angle the chain is coming from, and vice versa if the angle the chain is coming into the lower cog is reversed (big/big for example). The problem, shown with a couple pics from my other thread reposted 4 posts abovce this one, is when the pulley will actually jump over the plates causing the chain to derail on the inside. Did you ever experience this? And of course the noise. But looking at your pics, I'm not even sure your derailleur hanger is in perfect alignment, and it needs to be. But I think I've given all I've got here.
Thanks for your expert analysis as always on these things. Your last comment here with questioning the derailleur hanger alignment is the first thing that appears to be at fault. Last year when I first put the bike together and couldn't get it quite shifting right it prompted me to buy the Park tool but it was only a fraction out and made no difference. Unlike two other bikes I have that were noticeably out and got the gears on both sounding and shifting perfectly (my previously mentioned pre-2015 R and SR). The post-2015 rear was hitting the spokes after it being stored in a bedroom for 6 months during winter and nothing being adjusted at all as though in that 6 months something had degraded somehow. That drove me insane for a couple of weeks trying to dial that out and work out what could have happened and set me down this path to eventually establish there really isn't something right with the mech. I've checked alignment the entire way around the wheel and it's within 1mm in every plane so I think that's pretty good. I took the all the pictures in the middle sprocket as this in theory should be the optimal sprocket for minimising friction and why we adjust it in the first place in this position. I'll post the two pictures again that I've since forwarded to Wiggle that highlights how bad the post-2015 lines up (or not as the case is) compares with my Record.

Correctly looking Record

Image

Poorly lined up SR

Image

Just looking at the bottom picture you'd instantly think the gear hanger isn't lined up yet the only that's different between the two pictures is the rear mech. I'm wondering if the entire rear mech isn't at fault somewhere as there is a lot of play between the top pivot bolt and body of the mech when it's fitted and similarly between the jockey wheel cage and the body. It's definitely faulty somewhere but needs a Campagnolo expert to fit it to a standard by which to measure it with. Graeme mentioned in his comment about them using a perfectly lined up steel hanger. There's no doubt this mech lines up badly. Graeme mentioned about degradation of O rings in the jockey wheel / body due to reassembly with mineral oil but this has never been taken apart. There's nothing else I've got left to adjust or do that can make any difference to it. It just looks and sounds rubbish.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Well, just from looking at that second picutre... I think... wow, it's clear that derailleur hanger is bent inwards, but if you say you've had a proper tool on it and there's no more than 1mm variance all the way around, then it has to be good. I'm assuming the wheel was in perfectly straight when you checked it? I've made that mistake before for sure.

I'm curious as to what it does when completely cross chained on the small/small. I know this is something that you wouldn't normally, or even abnormally ride in, but I'd just like to know if the chain wants to derail to the inside. It's the best gear combo to test that in, due to the fact that the twist and how it interfaces with the incoming chain will be at it's most severe at that point.

As I think I mentioned... the shop I deal with said they had one customer that seemed to have a similar problem, with a rear derailleur purchased from the same place I got mine (out of state, good rep, just maybe a bad batch, but no confirmation of that). Anyway, they could never get it working properly and the guy eventually just got a new derailleur.

I'm curious as to what the final resolution will be. Wish I could find some of the videos I made of problaby 4 different derailleurs placed on a thick piece of glass. Only the "bad one" wobbled. It was my Oprah "ah ha" moment. But then when I disassembled the bad cage and a good cage and laid the parts down side by side, I had a difficult enough time discerning any difference that I couldn't unequivocally state exactly where the problem laid, but knew there was one. Then I started testing on a flat surface any derailleur I could get my hands on... and some might wobble a bit, and others wouldn't, even though they all worked. That led me to believe that maybe it was just some that were twisted more than others ever so slightly, or even that the threads in the female half of the cage were slightly off so that when assembled it would twist the thing even more than it was designed. I just couldn't ultimately get a definite conclusion on the matter. I suspect Campagnolo knows what it is or what it was, and has either rectified the issue in production or realized that something was amiss for just a few cages but wasn't a big enough issue to really worry about, except of course, the few who are actually pulling their hair out and cursing Campagnolo over it.
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c60rider
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by c60rider

Actually it's the same wheelset in both pictures my bora ultra 50s. I can't say what was happening in small/ small other than it was so bad it was an unusable gear 36/11. Even the 36/12 was one I didn't use for any time as it sounded like it wanted to shift so I don't know if it was trying to derail off the jockey wheel or not.

c60rider
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Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

New update from Wiggle. They've forwarded my detailed explanation to their supplier. To be fair I kept it really simple :lol: :roll:

Bridgeman
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by Bridgeman

c60rider wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:50 pm
Calnago wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:02 pm

@c60: I just went back to your original post to make sure I wasn't missing anything and noticed you said the derailleur was actually hitting the spokes at one point. Are you sure your hanger is perfectly aligned and did you check it with a proper tool? Can't emphasize this step enough and it's why I always have to ask. Not saying that's the crux of your issue here, but it's one thing that could make it worse actually, in a big way. The pics you show of the lower jockey wheel being closer to one side of the chain than the other is quite normal depending on which cog it's on. If its cross chained small/small it's going to be towards the outside due to the angle the chain is coming from, and vice versa if the angle the chain is coming into the lower cog is reversed (big/big for example). The problem, shown with a couple pics from my other thread reposted 4 posts abovce this one, is when the pulley will actually jump over the plates causing the chain to derail on the inside. Did you ever experience this? And of course the noise. But looking at your pics, I'm not even sure your derailleur hanger is in perfect alignment, and it needs to be. But I think I've given all I've got here.
Thanks for your expert analysis as always on these things. Your last comment here with questioning the derailleur hanger alignment is the first thing that appears to be at fault. Last year when I first put the bike together and couldn't get it quite shifting right it prompted me to buy the Park tool but it was only a fraction out and made no difference. Unlike two other bikes I have that were noticeably out and got the gears on both sounding and shifting perfectly (my previously mentioned pre-2015 R and SR). The post-2015 rear was hitting the spokes after it being stored in a bedroom for 6 months during winter and nothing being adjusted at all as though in that 6 months something had degraded somehow. That drove me insane for a couple of weeks trying to dial that out and work out what could have happened and set me down this path to eventually establish there really isn't something right with the mech. I've checked alignment the entire way around the wheel and it's within 1mm in every plane so I think that's pretty good. I took the all the pictures in the middle sprocket as this in theory should be the optimal sprocket for minimising friction and why we adjust it in the first place in this position. I'll post the two pictures again that I've since forwarded to Wiggle that highlights how bad the post-2015 lines up (or not as the case is) compares with my Record.

Correctly looking Record

Image

Poorly lined up SR

Image

Just looking at the bottom picture you'd instantly think the gear hanger isn't lined up yet the only that's different between the two pictures is the rear mech. I'm wondering if the entire rear mech isn't at fault somewhere as there is a lot of play between the top pivot bolt and body of the mech when it's fitted and similarly between the jockey wheel cage and the body. It's definitely faulty somewhere but needs a Campagnolo expert to fit it to a standard by which to measure it with. Graeme mentioned in his comment about them using a perfectly lined up steel hanger. There's no doubt this mech lines up badly. Graeme mentioned about degradation of O rings in the jockey wheel / body due to reassembly with mineral oil but this has never been taken apart. There's nothing else I've got left to adjust or do that can make any difference to it. It just looks and sounds rubbish.
This was exactly my experience a few years back, only my solution was going with a Chorus derailleur. I also felt that my SR twist issue was worsening over time, meaning the twist was becoming more prominate. There is a torsional load on the cage, particularly when in extreme gears and I was wondering if the resin used in the carbon cage wasn't yeilding from elastomeric creep over time. It never occurred to me to measure the derailleur before and after for dimensional integrity, so I'll never know, but my cage became so deformed that it was completely useless. Also, thought maybe Campy was experimenting with different angular biasing for performance optimization. For me, the bottom line was with the Chorus straight cage, just like your lower picture. This worked the best. What a hassle.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@c60rider: What I was getting at with asking about the wheel wasn’t which wheelset was being used (irrelevant) but more about ensuring that the wheel was fully and squarely seated in the dropouts when you had the alignment tool on it.

It does sound to me that you’ve got this issue going on, and I usually don’t say that since in the vast majority of cases where someone can’t get their stuff dialed it really does ultimately boil down to proper setup and the care one took during installation (cable runs, etc).
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c60rider
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by c60rider

Calnago wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:34 pm
@c60rider: What I was getting at with asking about the wheel wasn’t which wheelset was being used (irrelevant) but more about ensuring that the wheel was fully and squarely seated in the dropouts when you had the alignment tool on it.

It does sound to me that you’ve got this issue going on, and I usually don’t say that since in the vast majority of cases where someone can’t get their stuff dialed it really does ultimately boil down to proper setup and the care one took during installation (cable runs, etc).
Yes with you now. It was straight yes. It does start to drive you nuts in time but I must have gone over it 20 times checking the most basic of things and I wasn't missing anything. A couple of other people checked without me saying anything that could be wrong and both said rear gear mech so I'm not losing it just yet :lol:

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Bridgeman wrote:... I was wondering if the resin used in the carbon cage wasn't yeilding from elastomeric creep over time.
“elastomeric creep”... is that a thing? I suppose it is, but I try to avoid terms like that when talking with bike people. Just makes it easier for everyone. :)
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XCProMD
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by XCProMD

It would be polymer creep in this case, no elastomers in this component.

Pretty difficult at temperatures below 90 Celsius with the kind of epoxy used by Campag

Bridgeman
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by Bridgeman

XCProMD wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:10 pm
It would be polymer creep in this case, no elastomers in this component.

Pretty difficult at temperatures below 90 Celsius with the kind of epoxy used by Campag
Simply highlighting a potential material behavior, without going into specifics. I've dealt with this and its solutions in my profession and suggested this possibilty as the cage in my case appeared to have distorted increasingly over time. Polymers/elastomers are not perfect springs, and under load can distort over time.

What I would really like to know is whether Campy was shipping different parts for the same model derailleur. My SR derailleur cage has a twist and my Chorus derailleur cage of the same year does not.

baldy
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by baldy

Deleted.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I cannot tell the difference between pre 2015 cages and post 2015 cages. Same as between Chorus vs SR for example, aside from the metal vs carbon, the shapes seem to be the same. But @bmpf007 says they made a running change in the cages, and I suppose they could have, but I have a hard time seeing it (as I tried to show in the 10 pics earlier). He says he got it from the horse's mouth, whatever that means. I suppose I could say the same thing, that I got my info from the horses mouth as well. I think that "horse" may even be one and the same, just at different times with different degress of information available at the different times. That being, that I was told there is no difference in the cages from 2009 up until now (excluding 12sp of course). And since taking both vintages apart, it was very hard to tell if they did make a change. If they did, it was slight and likely had to do with maybe adding a bit "more" twist to the derailleur, but maybe they added too much in some cases. I just don't know.
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c60rider
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by c60rider

I think Graeme mentioned polymer creep as a phenomenon in one of the other threads but that likely only over a few years and again probably only a rarity

by Weenie


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