Campag Super Record rear derailleur shifting woes

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corky
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by corky

But why is there more twist ?..........what is the purpose? And if none is it just sloppy tolerances?

Because it sure makes it more difficult to be sure everything is setup correctly.

by Weenie


bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

it not sloppy it by design. i think it is to provide less noise when in bog big or close to that. Its a running change so if you bought a rear cage made after 2015 it would be the new design, old stock could be the old design.

The problem here is people are making assumptions. I assume nothing. I know what I see and I have checked if I am right. I also dont think it hard to set up campag 11 speed at all. Its pretty easy.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Curious as to where you got your information that there was a running change between pre 2015 and post 2015. I’ve certainly known Campy to make a running change in a part without changing the part number (must be an Italian thing) but it’s been documented. I’m not aware of any running change in the cage at that point and after pulling both versions completely apart was quite satisfied they were the same. Also, back at the time I did confirm with Campy that the cages were in fact the same.

I do think there may have been a bad batch or two with a little extra “twist” in them, but even those were hard to pick out with the eyes. I did a similar exercise with several derailleurs as @C60 did. Even made videos of wobbling derailleurs when placed on a sheet of glass. Sent them to Campy. I got a new Chorus cage and all was good.
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corky
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by corky

bm0p700f wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:11 pm
it not sloppy it by design. i think it is to provide less noise when in bog big or close to that. Its a running change so if you bought a rear cage made after 2015 it would be the new design, old stock could be the old design.

The problem here is people are making assumptions. I assume nothing. I know what I see and I have checked if I am right. I also dont think it hard to set up campag 11 speed at all. Its pretty easy.
I know what I see too and in my experience with previous Campagnolo derailleur the cages line up with the cogs, so when a newer mech looks twisted I think it’s only logical to assume it’s bent. If it is meant to be like that a) disseminate that Info and b) document it.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Well believe what you want. I have had it from the horse's mouth.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Me too... I guess we have to wonder which horse to believe then. Anything actually documented on Campagnolo’s site anywhere?
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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Nothing documented as far as I know not every is though. I simply asked the question based my own observations and got the reply. I actually was asking about a my campus app issue on my phone and it my booth tooth on this phone that does not work right.

Looking at my own mechs I really don't see anything posted here that looks like a problem. Did the op do his/her photos with the chain on the inner ring?


I will be at a service centre next week and I will bring a couple of mechs along to clear this up once and for all.
Last edited by bm0p700f on Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Do you have a couple of derailleurs that do not work to take along? In the sense of the issue I illustrated in the other thread I started. Unless you’ve got one that works and one that doesn’t work not sure what comparing two working derailleurs will do. I think it’s an issue that has been addressed by Campagnolo and doesn’t affect that many derailleurs. But when you get one, it’s extremely annoying.
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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I don't think I have any dodgy mechs but the twist in the ops cage is quite similar to my record mechanical rd. This mech worked just fine until the mech hanger on the Look went on the wonk.

Personally I would like to see the ops mech for myself and test it. I'm am curious. However he bought from wiggle not me. Really an Australian pro shop/ service centre should be handling this. I would like to know the result.

c60rider
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by c60rider

I'm in the uk actually it was someone else that bought theirs from the uk who was in Australia. Big twist, little twist or no twist at all, the issue i have with my SR mech is that I am unable to line up the jockey wheels with the sprocket. It angles in towards the wheel. All pictures were taken in the middle sprocket and small chainring for direct comparison. The twist observed, albeit much larger on the new SR mech compared to the older R and SR ones I have appears to be a bit of a red herring in all of this. When fitting my older mech to the same frame, same wheel, same sprocket and chainring combo it now lines up straight. This is what the pictures demonstrate and I was very careful to make sure these were as straight as possible lining the chain up above and below the chainstay.

In response to cal asking if I tried the older cage on the faulty mech I didn't as I didn't want to pull apart 2 mechs in that way as I think it's something the retailer/ service centre can do. Plus I'd already sent it back by then so we'll see what wiggle come back with.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@bm0p700F: I know what you mean about wanting to see it for yourself. Quite frankly, I don't know of anyone who has taken the time to study and troubleshoot this issue more than I did back at the beginning of all this.
But in the meantime... I've taken the liberty to take several pics of various SR derailleurs of maybe varying vintages, and maybe not... let's just say they are all between the years 2009-2017...
Here's a game... it's pretty easy. I set up a little experiment to see how good yours, or anyone else's eye is. They are set up as identically as possible... chain on big ring, and middle cog of the 11sp cassette, taken with the same camera angle (never moved). So, list your answers from 1-10 as "Post 2015" or "Pre 2015".... or just a general "Impossible to tell, just guessing". Have fun... and obviously some of you will recognize the bikes, but try to be fair... you're only real concern is trying to tell if the actual cage on the derailleur is pre-2015 or post-2015, or say there's no difference.

1)...
Image

2)...
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3)...
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4)...
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5)...
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6)...
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7)...
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8 )...
Image

9)...
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10)...
Image


Ok, there you have it... 10 shots. Any takers?


Looking at @c60's posts and pics, I would not be surprised if he is experiencing the same issue I started the other thread about. But it's just one of those things that's really hard to tell solely by looking at it, especially when you start comparing to other known "good" derailleurs.

You know, now that this issue has been ressurected from the dead... I'm not sure that it might not be something as simple as the threads for one of the pulleys in the female side of the cage being not perfectly square, so that when you tighten things down, it becomes twisted even more than designed, but when it's all apart, it's not so bad. When you know there's a twist designed into it, it's harder to know if the twist you see is ok, or too much. Just guessing. Sometimes it would look twisted, but "good" derailleurs looked twisted as well. It may have been just a matter of to what extent they were twisted. I just wasn't able to really get to the bottom of it all in the end, but knew it was the cage assembly. The bad derailleur I had (there were actually two from the same source), was really unusable. If the chain was crossed small/small that's when the issue really presented itself the strongest and the chain would actually derail to the inside. While I never ride small/small, when testing things I always run through ALL the combinations to make sure they work. This one did not. And I could put that cage on any derailluer, post 2015 or pre 2015 and it would behave the same way, on different bikes. Was definitely the cage. What was strange the local shop that deals in Campy said they had one customer that had the same issue. They worked on that thing forever, and couldn't get it right. In the end, he just got a new derailleur. I asked where he got the derialleur. It was the same place that the bad ones I had received were from, mail order from a reputable dealer, outside of our state. Maybe a coincidence, but I just couldn't spend any more time on it, till now. Damn you! Damn you all!
:beerchug: :D
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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Wiggle are not a pro shop. They will simply replace c60rider which may help you but not identify the problem so it could be fixed.

Could you not line up the top jockey wheel? L


The twist on the above photos is quite clear. I spotted it before I noticed the two limit screws on the post 2015 RD's.

I know I find it difficult to tell if the top jockey wheel is in line. I normally look at how the chain is falling. It should be parallel to next sprockets up.

The top jockey wheel in some of the above photos looking at how the chain falls does not look in line.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

But which cages above are pre-2015, and which are post 2015, keeping in mind that some cages may/definitely have been swapped... i.e, a pre 2015 cage may be on a newer body or a post 2015 cage may be on an older body. There are no “problem” derailleurs in the bunch and all shift perfectly and while I tried to have the bikes lined up exactly the same without moving the camera or the stand they were set in, the actual plane of the bike may be slightly off, a teensy bit. Point I was trying to make, was I think it’s pretty impossible to tell which are Pre 2015 and which cages are Post 2015. They are interchangeable. The rare “problem” derailleurs have such a twist that they, in the extreme, will derail the chain.

@bmpf... you seem to be focusing on the top jockey wheel. They are all fine... chain drops parallel to the cogs on either side of it. But the issue of the twist has never been the top jockey wheel... it's where the chain, coming from the front chainring, meets the lower jockey wheel as it enters the derailleur. The "problem" twist will be such that the pulley will actually ride over top to the outside edge of the link (at the more extreme angles, say small/small), and the chain will derail to the inside. Here's a couple pics of the problem from the beginning of my other thread...

From the rear...
Image


From the side, showing the pulley actually derailing off the outside of the chain... look carefully at the teeth of the pulley and you'll see that it has jumped outside of the chain and the chain has now derailed to the inside. THIS is the problem with the twist. Everything else I've encountered on systems is setup related. This, is not. Replacing the cage, be it with a pre 2015 or post 2015 cage should fix the problem, if that's what it is. And of course, check hanger alignment as a first step always.
Image
Last edited by Calnago on Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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c60rider
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by c60rider

Well this is not a good start. The response from Wiggle, which is from their supplier, is to say that I am using a post-2015 rear mech with pre-2015 levers thereby it's not compatible and so there's no warranty :roll: . Response fired back with a request to ask their supplier to raise it with a Campagnolo Service Centre and pictures forwarded of the issue. Which is exactly what I suggested for them to do in my initial returns paperwork. I get the feeling this is going to be a long struggle...

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Wait! You’re using pre-2015 levers with post 2015 rear derailleur?? Did I miss that when you were describing your setup. I don’t know that they are even compatible, right? They might be, but I’ve never tried it. For sure you couldn’t do it with the front derailleur and left shifter. And I’ve never had occasion to try a pre-2015 right lever with a post 2015 rear mech.

I think you may be running down a rabbit hole here. Have fun. I’ve said this before... I will spend as long as it takes to get a bike dialed so long as all components are compatible, but I won’t spend more than 5 minutes on a system using components never meant to be used with each other once I get things anywhere close to “well, it works, kinda sorta”.

But you do raise an issue I’ve not really spent much time with, and it would be nice to know what the specific reason is that makes the older levers incompatible with the post 2015 rear derailleur. Slightly different parallelogram?... slightly different cable pull?... I don’t know. The front incompatibility is obvious however.

I can, however, appreciate Wiggles response at this point.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
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by Weenie


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