Campag Super Record rear derailleur shifting woes

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Excellent idea. But be sure to verify that your hanger is perfectly aligned as a first step. In the end of all my efforts, that’s exactly how I was able to pinpoint the issue at least to the derailleur as a first step. The “bad” one was bad on both bikes. Same issue. The good one was good in both bikes. The next step was to see if I could isolate what exactly was different. That’s when I started swapping cages. The “bad” derailleur with the “good” cage worked. And vice versa on the other cage. So now I had it isolated to something in the cages. Then I tried pulling apart the cages and laying the pieces flat on a piece of glass. At first I thought I could see where the problem was but because of the built in “twist” I wasn’t quite sure. But in any case, I knew it was the cage and so just replaced it with a Chorus cage and all has been good ever since.
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graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

As Calnago rightly says, there is a very rare issue with the cage being over-twisted but the vast majority of shifting issues with these mechs are caused by either assembly or set-up problems.

It's super-important to note that there is - and has been since the 11s gear was introduced in 2008/9 - a slight twist in the cage as bm0p700f has pointed out ... so yes, the outer cage, when placed on a true flat surface, will rock slightly on the diagnonal, The problems arise when that twist is excessive (the very rare cases Calnago refers to), or if some other factor exacerbates it.

Check that the lower jockey wheel is fitted correctly (there is a right and a wrong way around for it, it is marked) and avoid lubrication of the upper pivot bolt with mineral-based oils - there are two o-rings in that assembly which if subject to exposure to mineral oil can go "soft" and cause the gear to hang "inward" even if the hanger is correctly aligned.

Soft gear hangers, gear hanger seats that are not actually aligned (meaning that even new hangers have to be cold-set) and poor placement of hanger securing screws, along with other frame-based issues can also affect shifting.

At Velotech we set suspect mechs up on steel bikes with accurately aligned hangers that are part of the dropout as the test rig and virtually all the mechs we test are not compromised at all.

It's always worth referencing your local Campag PrShop - they have direct access to the Service Centres and the SCs have direct access to the factory- so the technical information that you receive will be accurate and up-to-date. The senior SCs visit the factory on a regular basis and so technical issues that are identified during the in-the-field life of a component are also discussed face-to-face with the technicians at the factory in addition to the very regular discussions that are held via email on all manner of technical matters.

On a final note as I see it referred to from time to time - the appointed Campagnolo SCs in any country are expected by Campagnolo to handle any potential warranty claim that arises in that country, regardless of the point of original sale - so an Australian customer who has purchased via a UK-based retailer (for instance) should not have to return the item to the UK - the SC in the market where the customer experiences the issue is asked by Campagnolo to handle the case to give the promptest possible service.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
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by Weenie


bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

comparing a 2009 RD and 2015 RD wont work C60 rider because the cages are different. Looking at you cage and mine they are the same. I dont see anything untoward. I would start looking elsewhere before assuming the RD is the problem.

cmcdonnel's problem now I have seen the bike is not his RD or hanger. The steering is spring loaded by that I mean when the bars are turned in the stand they spring back to centre very quickly. So the cabling is not right. Also the RD cable comes out of the shifter on the outside port which may suit some bars but not these and that is probably the cause of the shifting woes. So once it is recabled with campagnolo cableset it should be alot better.

Also what jockey wheels do you have in there? RD-RE900? These are the new ones with taller teeth I believe to get everything running more smoothly. however I would not replace the jockey wheels until other things have been eliminated.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Cages are actually the same, from 11sp 2009/10 right on up through the current 11sp stuff. So swapping out cages between a proper running system and a bad one can help rule out the very rare problem I was describing in the other thread I created.

The problem with starting a thread like that is that there will be people who simply have a poorly set up system but immediately start thinking it’s gotta be due to the most rare issue they can track down on the internet when in the end, it’s more often than not something pretty basic in setup.

Proper cabling in a mechanical system just can’t be overemphasized as one of, if not the most important aspect of getting everything perfect. Internal cable bends and entry points in the bars are a good example of things to avoid. And the running of the derailleur cable out the outside side of the shifter is a route I will always avoid as well, even if it means bypassing an obvious path in the bars designed for internal cabling. If the cable housing is going to be under the tape anyway, I much prefer external runs along the bars, with the housing taped firmly to them. Then when it gets wrapped all is good. A lot of people want “aero” bars these days and some are not meant to be taped the whole way so internal runs are required so you make the best of it.

Anyway, sounds like @cmcdonnel’s bike is getting sorted at least.
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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Cages are the same I have just checked the parts catalogue. Then why is there twist in the current mechs?

This is my 2014 chorus Rd and there is no twist in the cage. It looks visibly different to the cage in the record 2015 Rd I have.

Image

I don't think the thread is useless at all.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Sorry, I didn’t mean the thread was “useless”... just that it brings out a lot of “oh, that must be what’s wrong with mine” comments when in fact it was a basic setup issue all along.

Regarding the twist... it’s slight. I had a bad derailleur cage and like I said in the other thread, the only way I could for sure tell was by swapping them. Had them in pieces on a flat piece of glass and still wasn’t sure what was wrong. I think it just takes such a small amount of error in that “twist” that it’s almost impossible to tell a good one from a bad one. However, mine would derail the chain on the inside and that had to be recrified. The problem component was indeed the cage.
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c60rider
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by c60rider

I managed to pull apart my 2011 Record rear mech and put it on my C60. This along with my 2009 SR rear mech on my other bike line up perfectly straight relative to the sprockets and ride near silently. Certainly no chain chatter going on.

So this is the 2011 Rec on my C60. The key really is to follow the inner alloy jockey cage plate and see how it lines up perfectly straight with the sprocket line above. I'll post the SR rear mech from before just below this image for a direct comparison

Image

Image

This shot pretty much confirms it to me there's something not right with my rear mech. The other thing I did prior to returning it to Wiggle was to picture the SR rear mech on a flat surface with the jockey wheels removed. I didn't post these pictures before as I had nothing to compare it with. Well now I do as I did exactly the same with the 2011 Record rear and these are the images.

SR rear mech

Image

2011 Record. The thing with this picture is I've had to get a lot lower down (you can see the front edge of my kitchen worktop here) to be able to photograph the gap as it's a lot less.

Image

So yes there is a normal twist to it but it's much bigger on the SR rear and also angles in further from the main body of the mech. The current position is Wiggle have had it back and they've returned it to their supplier. What I do recall, which may or may not be relevant, is when I purchased this in March 2017 there did seem to be a shortage of SR mechs so this was one that just popped up on my alerts from Wiggle to say it was now in stock. There was just the one so I purchased it yet when it arrived the seal had already been broken and the box obviously opened. I'm just wondering if someone was already aware of a potential issue with these mechs and had a look at what became mine and didn't like the look of it. I don't know why anyone would buy a SR rear mech and have to open it then decide they didn't want it. I'm just thinking all sorts here that may be of no relevance but I'm satisfied that the fault does seem to be with the gear. I had previously gone through every possible thing that could affect shifting/drivetrain performance and this was the only thing I found. It shifts perfectly but just sounds like it's cross chaining in almost every gear and with the jockey cage angled in the way it is then it's no surprise I can't get it working satisfactorily. I'll update once I hear back from Wiggle :beerchug:

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Sounds like you’re on your way to getting it resolved. Did you put the bad cage in a working derailleur on a different bike to see if it made that one wonky too?
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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

So why is it all the 2015 mechs I seen, have more twist in the mech bottom jockey wheel off centre with respect to the top, than the previous gen mechs.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I don’t know. I haven’t noticed that. Even when I took old and new completely apart and laid them side by side I couldn’t definitively say which was which.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

wilwil wrote:So when you put the carbon cage plate face down on a flat surface it should rock across a diagonal axis? This is not a fault? Is the Chorus cage metal rather than carbon and did that have a twist in it?
I think I missed this question first time round. It’s long enough ago now that I can’t remember how much I “analyzed” the Chorus cage when I received it, so I can’t say how much more or less of a twist it had. I just put it on to see if it worked and it did. I do remember weighing it (see what you guys have done to me) and I seem to recall the difference being 14grams. But like so many things, the heavier alloy Chorus cage was just so much stiffer that I thought well... that’s gotta be better from a functional standpoint, so I am quite happy to have my hybrid SR/Chorus rear derailleur. Kind of like the pros where they’d sometimes use the Chorus front derailleur due to its all metal cage vs the carbon one on the Super Record stuff.
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Bridgeman
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by Bridgeman

I posted a thread a few years back regarding the problems I had with a Super Record rear derailleur, and the observed twist of the cage. What a hassle that was, trying to get it to shift properly.

I ended up getting a Chorus rear derailleur and the shifts are near perfect. The cage pulley surfaces are parallel, unlike the Super Record with the twist.

I feel like Campy owes me money.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Got a link to that thread you started? I feel I may have come across it but wasn’t convinced yours was the same issue. Felt it could have been many other things if it’s the one I’m thinking of.
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Bridgeman
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by Bridgeman

Calnago wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:41 pm
Got a link to that thread you started? I feel I may have come across it but wasn’t convinced yours was the same issue. Felt it could have been many other things if it’s the one I’m thinking of.
I'll try and find the thread. I still have the derailleur on my desk, twist and all! Interesting that the Chorus derailleur cage did not have this angular bias.

by Weenie


bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

there has been a running change to the post 2015 cages meaning there is more twist in them than before but the part number has not changed. I am not going mad.

So changing the cages wont identify the problem as you creating a hybrid mech. So I would elimainate all other possibilities first before assuming the mech is the issue. it is an assumption. The cage has twist in it. It should not cause a problem if everything else is right.

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