Shimano releases new cassette design and 12spd for XTR- durace next?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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kerplunk
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by kerplunk

If you're not aware, Shimano have done a major update of their XTR group to M9100. Rumor has it that a lot of the tech is coming across to Dura ace next. Big change is the cassette splines are new so goodbye to the old spline design that's been around since 7spd was released. New design is called Micro spline and has 12spd capacity (coming to next dura ace?), can take a 10 tooth small cog and resists notching when using aluminum bodies so can be lighter without resorting to titanium. The XTR hub design is also new and has silent coasting.
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TonyM
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by TonyM

I think so...but when is the question...

by Weenie


XCProMD
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by XCProMD

That’s exactly what the industry needed: another freehub body standard.

Thanks Shimano

ooo
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by ooo

1) Shimano likes to keep mtb and road parts incompatible

2) New freehub design is paired with non-direct mount hanger to reach 10T cog, I doubt that shimano wants to cancel direct mount hanger on road too

So, Scylence:yes, Microsplines:may be, 10T:no
'

BdaGhisallo
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by BdaGhisallo

TonyM wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:43 am
I think so...but when is the question...
I am not so sure. After all, Shimano didn't include stand alone hubs in the R9100 lineup, choosing to focus completely on complete road wheels.

ParisCarbon
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by ParisCarbon

Id be surprised for them to change the spline... the groupset would literally be useless to anyone who didn't also buy new wheels.... oh wait....

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

ParisCarbon wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:59 pm
Id be surprised for them to change the spline... the groupset would literally be useless to anyone who didn't also buy new wheels.... oh wait....
Micro Spline freehubs are already available for DT Swiss hub bodies and I'm sure other major hub manufacturers will have their own Micro Spline freehub driver bodies available ASAP.

ParisCarbon
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by ParisCarbon

Whoohoo.. more money!! LOL :thumbup:
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:09 pm
ParisCarbon wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:59 pm
Id be surprised for them to change the spline... the groupset would literally be useless to anyone who didn't also buy new wheels.... oh wait....
Micro Spline freehubs are already available for DT Swiss hub bodies and I'm sure other major hub manufacturers will have their own Micro Spline freehub driver bodies available ASAP.

ooo
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by ooo

Microspline is patented for dt/shimano only, they can open it later for other companies.
If they have any plans to introduce it for road, they will keep it closed for a longer time.
'

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

ooo wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:22 pm
Microspline is patented for dt/shimano only, they can open it later for other companies.
If they have any plans to introduce it for road, they will keep it closed for a longer time.
I heard the patent hasn't been approved yet, and that's the why the spec hasn't be publicized.

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Roel W
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by Roel W

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:29 pm
ooo wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:22 pm
Microspline is patented for dt/shimano only, they can open it later for other companies.
If they have any plans to introduce it for road, they will keep it closed for a longer time.
I heard the patent hasn't been approved yet, and that's the why the spec hasn't be publicized.
That wouldn't be smart. Ifthey take a patent on it, it means Shimano riders can only buy Shimano or DT Swiss wheels and all other wheel manufacturers are out of the game. Don't think they will sell much groupsets that way.

By the way, Dura Ace has been renewed in 2017. Next iteration will be 2021 of 2022? Still a long way to go. By that time Campagnolo will have extended their range of 12-speed groupsets.
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kerplunk
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by kerplunk

Ok - here's another few reasons I see this coming to Dura-ace next (9200?)
1. Dura-ace is getting stale. 9100 saw only incremental improvements over 9000. Shimano marketing needs a wow factor to get you’ll to open your wallets. What better than 12 speeds! And now Campy has it, Shimano have to keep up.
2. Problem with 12 spd is it adds weight. See Campy for example. With an 11-28 cassette you can either add an additional intermediate gear (say 18 tooth but why?) or like Campy go low like 11-29. But a 29 tooth is big and heavy so how do Shimano save some weight (and out maneuver Campy)?
3. Micro-spline is the answer. First, it can be Aluminium as it resists notching -note all Shimano hubs are currently steel (except expensive Ti on DA and other brands use Al). Second, you can use a small 10 tooth gear so reduce the size of the chainrings (a 53x11 is same gear-inch as 48x10) and keep the weight down further (48/36 chainrings with 12 spd 10-28 cassette would perhaps be lighter than 53/39 and 11 spd 11-28).
So, from Shimano’s perspective, everyone is happy. Marketing gets their new 12 spd and micorspline (not to mention silent coasting which is another story), beancounters get cheaper Al freehubs so can add a few yen to the bottom line, sales gets to sell expensive new cassettes & freehubs and engineering gets the weight savings from Al and no notching.
So the only people complaining are the public who have to buy new wheels and/or freehubs (bet those of you (like me) with DT swiss are smiling smugly now) and of course the usual crowd who will come out with the “12 speed? Who for goodness sakes needs 12 speeds? I’m still on my Sturmey Archer 3 speed I bought in 1972…”

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Shimano could always release a halo tier above Dura-Ace...Super-Ace!

ParisCarbon
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by ParisCarbon

They will need to go 12 now... is it wireless?
Cog weight.. doubt any pro is concerned about 25 grams for a cog.. some are adding weight to their bike as it is.
Who knows where it will go... probably the biggest thing for after market with Campy going 12 was the fact that the chainline changed, and rumor I hear is that it possibly changed in the crank design, and not chainrings itself... P2Max needs to redesign the Campy PM because of the jump to 12 (got that right from them) SRM claims the current model "should" work, but couldnt give me a definite answer.. they provided me with links to their Campy PM, but following the trail leads to dead links when order time comes!
So alot depends too on how Shimano tackels the chainline issue.. our 11 spd crank based PMs may not want to play nice with 12 spd...

by Weenie


wingguy
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by wingguy

Roel W wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:13 pm
By the way, Dura Ace has been renewed in 2017. Next iteration will be 2021 of 2022? Still a long way to go. By that time Campagnolo will have extended their range of 12-speed groupsets.
Nah dude, DA was announced summer 2016, ultegra 8000 was 2017 and 105 2018. According to the cycle DA9200 can be expected to be announced next summer.

I would be surprised if the new microspline hub was put on the road group, you don’t need it to do 2x12 with an 11 sprocket. Would be interesting if there was an option to have it for road 1x11 though, along with a clutch derailleur option.

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