S-Works Venge 2019

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
romanmoser
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 8:30 pm

by romanmoser

Well , I had heard no rims brakes
It looks like they are making an exception for now for bora deutch rider , burghardt marcus
Didn't see anyone else on a rim brake new venge

They look as crappy as on the old venge tough
Image

by Weenie


Slack
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:37 pm

by Slack

romanmoser wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:07 pm
Well , I had heard no rims brakes
It looks like they are making an exception for now for bora deutch rider , burghardt marcus
Didn't see anyone else on a rim brake new venge

They look as crappy as on the old venge tough
Image
That is the old Venge.

Slack
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by Slack

And he’s German, the national champs kit and bike are a bit of a give away.

romanmoser
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by romanmoser

Yes why the *f##k* did I write dutch , deutsch was what I had in mind

CrankAddictsRich
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by CrankAddictsRich

Exactly... that's the old Venge ViAS and to me, that says Specialized has a few of these frames left... they don't want to offer them to the public (let's sell the new one instead) so let's make a PR move, giving some of our chmpaions a bike to match their champions kits.
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CrankAddictsRich
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by CrankAddictsRich

Datmo wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:19 am
It feels like most aero bikes these days are starting to look the same. The new Venge looks quite familiar compared to the latest gen Canyon Aeroad, Scott Foil, Merida Reacto etc. It’s not a bad thing, I just think certain “standards” have finally been set with dropped seat stays, integrated cockpits and now discs with thru axles etc.

I remember reading somewhere that Mark Cote, Head of Global Marketing and Innovation at Specialized, mentioned that modern road race stages have changed compared to say ten years ago. There are very few completely flat or hilly stages anymore. So whilst lightness was always important, due to the 6.8kg UCI weight limit, aero started to become much more important. And that started the whole search for the best all rounder. He said these elitist bikes will sit closer together in manufacturers line up so all bikes offer great stiffness, light weight and aero properties. It’s just better for the manufacturers to have a bigger offering rather than the one bike. I think with the new Tarmac and now this Venge, it’s clear that they’re not only look very similar to each other but also many other manufacturers offerings. It’s almost like the industry have agreed on what actually works.
It has nothing to do with the industry deciding what works... ithas to do with science and these guys getting into the wind tunnel. The data pushing them all towards the same shape.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

And in Specialized’s case, having their own “Win Tunnel” allows them to develop their own “data” that fits their marketing spiel. Hmmm... well that particular way of testing doesn’t really jibe with what we’re selling. Let’s alter the test protocol a bit... there... that’s much better... we can sell that. Now go make a YouTube boys.
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Datmo
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by Datmo

CrankAddictsRich wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:22 pm

It has nothing to do with the industry deciding what works... ithas to do with science and these guys getting into the wind tunnel. The data pushing them all towards the same shape.
I guess that is what I meant - It’s like the industry has agreed on what works (in terms of testing leading to certain results) the best because it’s all starting to look a bit the same.

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ergott
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by ergott

You don't design a bike without testing it through all phases of development, especially if you own your own wind tunnel. I think it's really cynical to say they came up with a bike and then "designed" the testing protocol after the fact. The proof is in the results from independent testing that shows the previous model was amongst the class leaders. The same used to be said about Zipp wheels until enough independent tests revealed that their published results were comparable. I see what they dried to do with the rim brake version of the previous model, but never liked the execution. Surely they didn't come up with such a convoluted design without testing it to be an aero solution to rim brake frames. Look at the Madone rim brake. It's a more elegant solution, but they also see the importance of hiding the calipers as much as possible. Problem is that the results hinder braking performance compared to the best stock calipers and makes the bike cumbersome. The move to disc actually looks like it will produce an overall more aerodynamic bike and since housing almost never needs changing, it will be easier to service over time. Bleed and occasionally change fluid. Leave the housing stuck inside the frame hidden from the air.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Short version. You don’t create narrow testing protocols in R&D. You focus on specific results in Marketing. That said, the marketing department doesn’t have much leeway to bullshit aero claims with obviously cherry-picked results.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

It may be cynical, but Specialized has done their best to warrant cynicism from me. Disguised solid steertube inside a rubber shroud to make it look like it’s the Diverge suspension system, etc.
Not at all saying they came up with the bike and only then put it through the “win tunnnel”. I’m sure they used it a lot during development. But when it’s their own wind tunnel and own testing protocols, they certainly can cherry pick what and how they want to present it to the consumer in their marketing literature. And they do.
No one would have dreamed of having discs on an aero bike a few years ago, but that’s when aero was the main thing and the minutest bit of non-aero was devils work. But now that discs are the “thing”, well they’re not so bad after all.
The spincycle on Specialized’s marketing machine goes hand in hand with their test results. But that’s not limited to just Specialized. Although I do think they have the best washing machine.
Independent testing, completely unfunded by any manufacturers, has more validity for sure, but it’s hard to justify the expense of testing without funding from somewhere.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Trek doesn't even have its own wind tunnel and must rent its own time in one. The latest Emonda wasn't wind tunnel tested during development and that clearly shows in Tour Magazine's results. So if we're questioning the one brand that actually built its own wind tunnel, what does that really say about everyone else's commitment to the engineering?

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Not sure what point you’re trying to make. The Emonda is probably not a good example to be comparing with respect to aero since there’s nothing really “aero” about it at all, except that it’s a fairly thin bicycle frame in comparison to the bulk of human flesh on top of it. But I’d rather ride it any day all day over any aero bike out there. Anyway, I’ve stated what I think about Specialized’s brand of marketing, nothing new there. It was more a brilliant marketing move on their part to build their own wind tunnel. And I would wager the main benefit from owning their own comes from the marketing aspect more than the development insight it provides them. But they shouldn’t trump aero as the only criteria by which to judge a bike. The first Venge should have taught them that lesson many times over.
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taodemon
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by taodemon

Calnago wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:16 pm
But they shouldn’t trump aero as the only criteria by which to judge a bike. The first Venge should have taught them that lesson many times over.
You don’t seem to put much value in aero, which you are entitled to, but is there something specific about the first venge, different from other aero bikes, that they needed to have learned their lesson on? I know their marketing slogan is “aero is everything” but that is hardly the only design philosophy in their bikes.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Yes... they should have given a little more thought to how the brakes might actually function, having placed them where they did and requiring all the internal bends of the cables etc to get there. It’s no secret that the brakes sucked on those bikes. They even had to cut chunks out of the front area when they realized they were jamming. It’s kind of a simple case of making sure everything will work once the bike is fully built... during the development phase. I called that out as I saw it, it didn’t take much looking to realize those brakes were going to have a difficult time on that bike. And they did.
Nothing really to do so much with aero as much as what they gave up in functionality by the brake design and the resulting routing that the cables had to follow.
And are they still sticking to the “aero is everything” slogan, now that they’re pushing disc brakes as hard as they are. Because if aero is really “everything”, then disc brakes shouldn’t be in the equation. I think they’ve backed off from that a bit now, haven’t they?
Sorry, I’m not here to bash the Venge, or aero or even disc brakes for that matter. To each his own. I just think their marketing is a little over the top sometimes, like a lot of the time.
Last edited by Calnago on Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

by Weenie


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