Campagnolo Shifting Issue Update page 2

[Mr.Gib]

Hi Graeme and thanks for weighing in.

The problem can be stated very simply. The rear derailleur undershifts in the middle of the cassette and overshifts on the 2 or 3 biggest cogs. Hanger is straight, cables and housing replaced, cassette lock ring properly torqued. The wheels are Campagnolo Shamal Ultra. Nothing seems to make any difference.

Since my last post the bike has been with a very experienced Campy mechanic who has run out of ideas. (I really don't think there is any problem with compatability between the frame/hanger and the rear derailleur). He was in touch with Campy and they are sending him a "special part" that they believe may fix the problem. This bit sounded a bit fishy to me.

Tomorrow I will call. If they don't have a fix I think we are at the point where they should simply replace the shifter and the rear derailleur.

Graeme, in your experience have you had luck with longer cage derailleurs solving mysterious shifting issues? I know there is a mid-cage Record rd and I wonder if that might just do the trick. I have found that on every bike where I have changed from short to mid cage derailleurs, the shifting has improved. My experience has been with Sram and Shimano thus far, but perhaps my Record groupset will benefit as well. My cassettes are 11-28 (11-29 for Campy) and I suspect the big spread may be part of the issue.

And not that it may matter for service, but I am not in the US. Rather I'm in Canada, so yeah we have the Queen also.

[Calnago]

I wonder if this is the “special part” they may be sending you...

Actually that one I have in my hand is the version they came out with to work better, in some cases, with the 12/29 cassette when it first got released. There’s actually a newer one again, still with three holes but the ratchet teeth wrap much further around. It helps with getting the upper pulley closer to the cogs in some cases.

[Mr.Gib]

Perhaps Cal.
But the thing that has me really scratching my head is how can a derailleur that is straight and square, and seems to be functioning properly, both undershift and overshift just a few cogs apart? It undershifts going from the 14 to the 15 tooth cog - I have to give an extra little push to get it to go. And it overshifts going from the 24 to the 26 tooth cog - it climbs up on the 29 before dropping down and settling on the 26.

I could understand if it was lazy in both directions - then you have an argument for the upper jockey wheel being too far frome the cassette. I don't seem to recall it ever hesitating moving down the cassette.

[Calnago]

Well, that’s the only “special part” that can think of.
You know... when 11sp cassettes first came out, the spacers between the cogs were all the same. It was extremely difficult to get the indexing absolutely perfect without having a little “tick” in one combo. They very early on changed one spacer (between the second cluster of 3 cogs, and where all the individual cogs start). They made that one spacer a few tenths of a mm thicker, and rounded the number up to 3mm I think, when all the others were 2.2mm or something. But that was a long time ago. I can’t really imagine you would have a cassette that old but it’s easy to check the spacer. It’s a different shape than all the rest.

[graeme_f_k]

Hi Graeme and thanks for weighing in.

The problem can be stated very simply. The rear derailleur undershifts in the middle of the cassette and overshifts on the 2 or 3 biggest cogs. Hanger is straight, cables and housing replaced, cassette lock ring properly torqued. The wheels are Campagnolo Shamal Ultra. Nothing seems to make any difference.

Since my last post the bike has been with a very experienced Campy mechanic who has run out of ideas. (I really don't think there is any problem with compatability between the frame/hanger and the rear derailleur). He was in touch with Campy and they are sending him a "special part" that they believe may fix the problem. This bit sounded a bit fishy to me.

Tomorrow I will call. If they don't have a fix I think we are at the point where they should simply replace the shifter and the rear derailleur.

Graeme, in your experience have you had luck with longer cage derailleurs solving mysterious shifting issues? I know there is a mid-cage Record rd and I wonder if that might just do the trick. I have found that on every bike where I have changed from short to mid cage derailleurs, the shifting has improved. My experience has been with Sram and Shimano thus far, but perhaps my Record groupset will benefit as well. My cassettes are 11-28 (11-29 for Campy) and I suspect the big spread may be part of the issue.

And not that it may matter for service, but I am not in the US. Rather I'm in Canada, so yeah we have the Queen also.

Just quick because I am supposed to be somewhere else ...

Hanger bolts tight?
Does the hanger shift when you do your QR up?
Cassette lockring tight?

Medium cage - yes, yu will get better shifting on the 11-29 and on the 11-27 options with the long cage - chain is longer, RD drawn less far forwards, more chain wrap.

Why?
Shifting is a lot more complex than people think - it's not just down to does the RD stop under the right sprocket - there's a complicated equation going on involving chain tension, the way the mech is pulled by the tension in the chain under crank-set torque, the flexibility of the chain, RD and hanger etc. etc, etc.

Cal is / was right when he says more things have to be spot on with 11 than 10 - and so it ever was each time we added a sprocket. I'm old enough to remember racing on 5 speed and we could get away with practically anything in those days!

We've added a North American to the Royals now ...

[Geoff]

Sorry to hear you are still having troubles. I have never had a shifting problem with Campagnolo (down to the product, not me). One of the things that I have found over the years is that, notwithstanding the fact that my eye (and the Campagnolo guage) seems to suggest that there is nothing wrong with the hanger, replacing the hanger seems to resolve any issue. No idea why this is the case.

[Calnago]

The only thing that would explain that is if the hanger you were replacing was soft like cheese. Hate hangers like that.

[AJS914]

Does the hanger shift when you do your QR up?

What are the implications of that? My C59 does that. There's no way to correct it AFAICT.

[Calnago]

Is the hanger solid, as in it’s not all wobbly or easily bent? They are not designed to be aligned over and over again as they will weaken just as if you folded a piece of cardboard in the same spot back and forth multiple times. But the hanger should be aligned, if it isn’t obvious, with the wheel clamped firmly and squarely in the dropouts. And it should not be “shifting” from that position. The implications of a soft hanger should be fairly obvious... it won’t be as precise a shift as it will flex as the forces of the derailleur try to shift the chain around the cogs.

[AJS914]

It's all solid and it shifts fine. I aligned the hanger with the wheel installed.

When you release the quick release on the rear wheel the dropouts expand a tiny bit. I don't think there anything you can do. Colnago just built this frame slightly less than perfectly in spec. My old Litespeed was spot on perfect in this regard.

[Mr.Gib]

Hanger bolts tight?
Does the hanger shift when you do your QR up?
Cassette lockring tight?

Everything is solid. Hanger is not rocking or shifting. All elements that could affect shifting have been checked and re-checked. And the bike and groupset are all essentially new - not even a full season and very limited use - it shares duty with 4 or 5 other bikes.

A part of me is tempted to just buy a new Record mid-cage derailleur and give it a shot. But on the off-chance that I end up there anyway at Campy's expense, I am prepared to let them mess around with my RD a little longer - it's already been 10 days. Losing patience.

[wilwil]

I had 2010 11 speed on an Extreme Power and the shifting wasnt good until I replaced the mechhanger with a Pilo version. In fact, the EP mech hanger wasnt available so I sent Pilo the Colnago one and they copied it so now it is available. At first I thought the frame wasnt stiff enough to run 11 speed. Some Colnago hangers are like butter. The best shifting Ive had with 11 speed is on my Pegoretti which does not have a seperate mech hanger. Instead it has a Dario designed stainless drop out built like a brick shithouse.

[Mr.Gib]

So after waiting more then a month I gave up on Campy and have obtained a mid cage HO Record derailleur (a huge thanks to my LBS for making this happen). Campagnolo here on the West coast of Canada was simply unable to either diagnose or repair the problem. No idea if they even tried. As far as I know the derailleur sits on a workbench somewhere surrounded by people unable to do anything about it.

Indeed the mid-cage derailleur does improve the shifting to an acceptable level. The RD can now be set so that it works from the 11 cog to the 29 cog fairly consistently without overshifting on the 24 or the 26. Only occasionally does it fail to climb from the 14 to the 15 without a little extra push. Obviously the fact that it is not perfectly consistent tells me that things are not quite right. Perhaps the root of the problem is in the shifter. I wonder what could go wrong in a new shifter that would cause both overshift and undershifting at various places on the cassette? That doesn't really seem possible. The shift cables and housing have been replaced so that element should be ruled out.

Interestingly the same LBS reported a similar problem on a Super Record groupset that they and Campagnolo are also unable to resolve. Is there something a mechanic could do in error that would result in these wierd symptoms. I recall something about a little brass sleeve that occasionally falls out during installation of cables. The particular mechanic involved in both these builds is very experienced with Campagnolo so I would be surprised if anything was overlooked, particularely after extensive troubleshooting.