Campagnolo Shifting Issue Update page 2

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

  • Campagnolo Record Mechanical (less then 2000 km)
    New Record chain
    New Chorus 11-29 cassette
    Hanger is straight
    Upper jockey wheel as close a possible to the cassette
    Derailleur pivots lubed
Toward the smaller end of the cassette, I get hesitation that requires an extra push of the lever to move the chain to the next biggest cog. If I don't give the extra push the chain will just click away in the wrong gear until I go over a bump. This would seem an easy problem to fix except that the chain also often resists going down the cassette and requires a double downshift followed by a recovery shift to get the desired gear. Happens on both the big and small ring.

What am I overlooking?
Last edited by Mr.Gib on Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

by Weenie


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Calnago
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by Calnago

- Friction in the cables.
- Too tight bends.
- Internal routing... all kinds of things inside there.
- Frayed cable... pull back the rubber hood. If you’ve used the outer (more acute) bend for the cable run, this is where it will ultimately fray, much like but not as quickly as the Shimano cables coming out of the shifter then having to make a 90 degree bend. I avoid that routing like the plague.
- Are the derailleur housings in good shape... square ends ALL the way into the hoods. General condition good? Or are they all gunked up inside?
- Are you using Campy cables, inner and outer? If not, are you using coated cables where the coating is peeling off and bunking thjngs up and causing more friction than they were intended to reduce?
- is the cable guide at the BB clean and smooth. Not coated with dried up sports drink stickiness.
- edit: just about forgot. Are the cassette and chain in good condition?

That’s a good list to start with.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Butcher
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by Butcher

Cable friction.

I had an early SR11 and had the same issues you do. Campagnolo increased the spring tension in the rear derailleur among other things to make it better. My problem was solved with SR EPS.

I believe attacking the problem looking at ways to reduce the friction, you'll be satisfied. Maybe routing the cable differently may help.

RyanH
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by RyanH

Sorry to hijack the thread, but has anyone noticed that Campy tends to overshift when moving up the cassette? I can't seem to eliminate that entirely otherwise I get a noisy cassette. Shimano 9100 was eye opening at how precise it moved up the cassette and there was no way I could "shift wrong" and get it to temporarily jump to the next cog and back down. I can't seem to eliminate that with SR. It's particularly a problem if trying to shift under load as if I'm not careful, the gears will slip while doing that and I'll lunge forward.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

The return spring in the very early 11sp (circa 2009-2010) was stiffened up a bit. And the cable bushing in the right shifter was modified then too. Easy to replace the bushing but the spring was what it was. I still have that version on my C50 and it shifts fine. But again, it’s all about setup.

Oh, and I forgot another critical thing in my first post above... derailleur hanger alignment. Make sure that the hanger is straight in all planes.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

kode54
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by kode54

as Butcher mentioned...cable friction. check the cable nearest the shifters where it makes a tight turn. a friend had that issue not long ago. when i had Campy on my IndyFab...i messed up on the positioning of the cassette cogs. the last cog was actually not pinned correctly...leaving it askew. therefore, i had bad shifting...especially on the last two cogs on the cassette. not sure if its a common error, but while i was bashing Campy...it turned out the poor shifting was user error. i found it by parting out the IF while swapping over to Shimano mechanical. i didn't even bother stopping there and calling it a day...i had already dismantled everything and the cassette was the last to go.
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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Thanks for weighing in on this Cal and others. As per your list Cal, everything has been covered. The bike is my Colnago Extreme Power so easy external routing. Not using the outer bend cabel routing either and never anything but water in the bottles - that sweet shit can really mess up a bike.

Turns out the upper jockey wheel needs to be closer then the specified 5 - 7 mm to solve the problem. I have it set just to avoid tooth contact with the cassette on the 29. Wierd thing is there is still the very slightest hesitation (occasionally) on the 15 tooth cog. In the three biggest cogs there is a very minor tendency (occasionally) to overshift - the chain wants to climb the next biggest cog, but only momentarily. Reducing cable tension cures this but exacerbates the hesitation on the 15. Normally that type of thing makes me suspect hanger issues but it's perfectly straight and square. (So yeah Ryan, I am with you on this)

I think most people would wonder what I am complaining about. The shifting is very good. However, I am seeking perfection. My belief is that issues such as these are just the inability of the close spacing of this 11 speed system tolerate the effects of minor design, manufacturing, and compatibility (frame, wheel, hanger?) problems. My general finding has been that with all my 11 speed systems (and I have all three major brands) is that they require more fine tuning and more frequent chain replacement to stay in perfect working order than do 10 speed drive trains. My travel bike is 10 speed and is by far the best shifting of the 5 bikes I own and ride regularely. It simply never requires adjustment. It is original 2010 Sram Red 10 speed if you were wondering (with updated Yaw FD), so certainly the lesser of the three major brands in terms of shifting quality, and yet better performing in some respects than "more advanced" systems. I will be a late adopter of 12 speed.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I certainly understand striving for perfection in the shifting. It’s like mandatory for me. What vintage of 11sp stuff are you talking about here. There was one other change they made when they introduced the 12/29 cassette (way before the recent 11/29). And that change was the gear (ratchet wheel) that the h-screw turns on. They simply added another hole to it where the spring goes into (you’d know what I’m talking about if you’ve taken it apart). I of course had to have it but didn’t notice a difference on my Colnago C50, as it already had a long enough derailleur hanger to allow the “unmodified” derailleur to work with the 29 tooth cog.
And you’re right about 11sp stuff being more susceptible to exacting setup then 10sp. It has to be, everything is closer. That’s why I even thought that 11sp might be as fine as we could go in current spacing scenarios with a mechanical drive train that really relies on friction free cable movement. And then boom... they drop 12sp on us, squeezed into the same space. I’m really anxious to get my hands on a group, and I especially want to see the new cable set, which by the way is backwards compatible. So, one suggestion would be to try to recable it with the newest cable set for 12speed. It can’t hurt.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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Calnago
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by Calnago

RyanH wrote:Sorry to hijack the thread, but has anyone noticed that Campy tends to overshift when moving up the cassette? I can't seem to eliminate that entirely otherwise I get a noisy cassette. Shimano 9100 was eye opening at how precise it moved up the cassette and there was no way I could "shift wrong" and get it to temporarily jump to the next cog and back down. I can't seem to eliminate that with SR. It's particularly a problem if trying to shift under load as if I'm not careful, the gears will slip while doing that and I'll lunge forward.
Mine is dialed. I should make a video some day. 1 click, 2 clicks, 3 clicks... I can shift any number of cogs instantly and be confident as to where it’s going to land. I can’t do that with any other system, electric or mechanical. I know it can be finicky to set up but it really is all in the details and just how much effort you take to create a friction free cabled environment, then really fine tuning the adjustment till it’s bang on. I’ve said this before, but with a brand new chain I like to completely degrease it and dry it then do the initial setup with a total bare metal drivetrain. It allows me to hear all metal to metal contact and make the adjustment easier to know when you’ve nailed it. After that I use Duomonde Tech Lite lube, which after a few applications will have coated the chain with kind of a liquid plastic and makes for a completely noise free drive train.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

joeyb1000
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by joeyb1000

Go down to about the 15th post (FYI, this is also an Extreme Power):
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... 1#p1247891

FYI, I replaced that derailleur with a medium cage HO, and I had to do the same thing.

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

joeyb1000 wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 9:13 pm
Go down to about the 15th post (FYI, this is also an Extreme Power):
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... 1#p1247891

FYI, I replaced that derailleur with a medium cage HO, and I had to do the same thing.
Thanks joeyb1000 - my symptoms are the same as yours including it being a bit worse on the big ring.

So it's not set up. It's known issue with a lack of compatibility between my Colnago and Campagnolo. Bastards. FYI my Record Groupo is latest version - purchased new in 2017. And what's with those shitty little philips head screws to adjust all of this? :evil:

It was a bit hard to follow the fix. Just change the hole that the spring goes into? Has anyone tried grinding the little stop on the hanger?

I appreciate Graeme's suggestions about always going to the service center, but as others pointed out, on this side of the pond they just don't perform very well. If I start with retailer where I bought the groupo, I will get a lot of blank stares. And I'd bet a lot of money that the service center won't have a clue about this problem nor be capable of the fix. Afterall, these are the same people who didn't read Campy's instructions or watched their how to video about replacing spokes (Shamal Ultra). They forgot to add thread locker resulting in spokes coming dramatically loose and a wildly out of true wheel that nearly damaged my frame. They also used an old spoke key which damaged the soft alloy nipples. I have never worked as a bike mechanic and I had zero experience with anything Campy until this year, and yet it appears that I am leaps and bounds more capable then the service techs available to me - it seems only I was able to properly tension and secure the spokes. So I guess I am on my own for the derailleur fix. Alternately I could just take the groupset back and demand a refund. And get a groupset that is compatible with my Colnago.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Joey did something very different than what I was describing in that thread. There was no grinding of anything and no touching of the “upper pivot” with what I described in that thread. I went through the gamut of cassettes from 11/23 - 11/29 and found that in all cases I could get the upper pulley very close to the cogs. I even checked to see that the Colnago hanger was within Campags specs and it was. I do not know specifically if the Extreme Power was different. However, if your hanger had ever been replaced by one of the Colnago hangers from Pilo (the European version of Wheels Mfg) then it could very well be not playing very well. I actually sent some stuff explaining why to Pilo and they changed the design of their Colnago replacement hangers, at least for the C59. It had to do with the radius of the small curve on the “hook” of the hanger which would catch the Derailleur stop too early, causing it to be “out of spec” with Campy’s derailleur hanger specs.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Well I ain't pulling apart my derailleur, so that leaves messing with or changing the hanger which I am prepared to do. Current hanger is the stock item - never touched. I haven't had the bike out on the road since I dialed the jockey wheel super close (need a rest - 400 km in the last 3 days :unbelievable: ) Shifting is acceptable (not perfect) on the stand. Road test tomorrow will tell me if I need to do anything drastic.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

joeyb1000
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by joeyb1000

You can test this theory on the stand. Yet it to a gear that’s not shifting. Push the upper knuckle just a little bit, and watch the gear pop in. If you are going to adjust the hanger (my solution is a pain in the ass), I think you only need to take 1/8” off the stop of the derailleur hanger.

But the 2nd generation 11s design was an improvement over the 1st generation (and 10s), Your shifting should be a lot more than “acceptable”.

by Weenie


graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

FWIW at this stage - what wheels do you have in?

Mavic pushes the cassette a little further inboard than Campag, for instance - and that can sometimes, especially with a very "thick" hanger, cause shift issues as the return spring on the RD is pre-loaded more than it should be in the smallest sprocket. More commonly a problem on the triples, I have to say.

Also - check lockring tightness - the cassette spacers are compressible and the lockring *really does* need to be at or around 40 nm on CH-RE-SR. The number of lockrings I see not tight enough (on all brands) is legion.

Cal mentions cables - don't forget metal ferrules as well, rather than plastic.

Also remember that 2015 and later RDs have a B-Screw so sometimes a small amount of adjustment here is needed, according to dropout design. Be careful, the screw is designed to carefully adjusted a minimum of times - easy to burr the head.

Service centre - often best to speak with Dan Large or Buddy Spafford of Campagnolo NA, direct. They are super-busy but will give you good quality advice.

If you have an issue with work that the SC in your part of the US has done, you really need to address it with them. If they don't know that someone dropped the ball, they can't fix it.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC

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