Need recommendations for top end sprinter bike to replace Madone 9

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Noctiluxx
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:17 pm
Location: Southern California

by Noctiluxx

jlok wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 3:46 am
Noctiluxx wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 3:17 am
The new Giant Propel SL Disk is really, really, stiff. My Bianchi Oltre XR4 is exceptionally stiff, yet somehow, comfortable. Having said that, I just cracked my Vision integrated bar on the Oltre :x
i just got the Propel SL Disc 1 and the seatpost seems to be the stiffest I've ever seen... at least it's much stiffer than my TCR SL Disc. The front end feels much more "compliant" relatively speaking :roll:
Yeah but when you put the pedal down, the new Propel SL shoots out like a rocket, even more fiercely than my TCR SL. I think its the stiffest bike I've ever ridden.
2018 Bianchi Oltre XR4, (Celeste Matt)
2018 De Rosa SK Pininfarina (Blu)
2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL (Red)
2016 Specialized Allez DSW Sprint (Gold)
2016 Giant Anthem Advanced SX (FS)
2018 Trek Farley EX 9.8 Fatty (FS)

endershan
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:56 am

by endershan

I ride a Venge Disc with S-Works crankset/7900 chainrings, and with the data at hand (Tour, FWB etc) I think this might be the 2nd stiffest combination so far. I come to this conlusion as follows:
1. Since stiffness is the main concern, you would want to eliminate the options of all 24mm spindle cranksets hence frames, since the cranks are not stiff enough on the non-drive side.
2. According to FWB's crankset test, S-Works Road (2016 and prev, not sure with Praxxis or S-Works rings) was the stiffest crankset when the test was done. Later Specialized released newer version of this crankset, and by the design I think it would be stiffer than the older version. However, there is still room for improvement: rings. FWB test shows that Shimano Dura-ace and Ultegra cranksets have great drive side stiffness, and I suppose that's result from their the hollow chainring design. So I assembled a pair of 7900 chainrings on a S-Works Road 2017 crank.
3. When I have done selecting crankset, it left me little options for frames. S-Works Tarmac SL5 is the stiffest on Tour's list, but seemed a bit old, so I went for Venge Disc.
Note that if you are looking for absolute stiffness in sprinting, you shouldn't go for an aero handlebar. According to FWB again, PRO Vide Carbon handlebar and PRO Vibe Sprint was the stiffest combination then.

Svetty
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:06 pm
Location: Yorkshire - God's Own Country

by Svetty

endershan wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:48 am
1. Since stiffness is the main concern, you would want to eliminate the options of all 24mm spindle cranksets hence frames, since the cranks are not stiff enough on the non-drive side
Must be why all those pro sprinters never win using 24mm spindle cranksets. Hang on a minute......... :roll:

mike001100
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:26 am

by mike001100

Hate to say it, but given your requirements (I did not notice aero?), I would recommend a FESTKA, they can make it as brutally stiff as you can handle :)

A friend of mine had a gravel bike from them and my oh my was it stiff (not suited to its purpose I would venture to say)

endershan
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:56 am

by endershan

Svetty wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 5:41 pm
endershan wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:48 am
1. Since stiffness is the main concern, you would want to eliminate the options of all 24mm spindle cranksets hence frames, since the cranks are not stiff enough on the non-drive side
Must be why all those pro sprinters never win using 24mm spindle cranksets. Hang on a minute......... :roll:
We are only talking about stiffness, not whether it's necessary :D
In fact, according to mutiple source, the stiff parts ( frames, cranks, bars, etc) can be twice as stiff as the soft ones, but most of us wouldn't notice the difference.

lactatehate
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:50 pm
Location: UK

by lactatehate

From firsthand experience of regularly being able to put 1200w sprints (maybe that's in your ballpark) you won't find stiffer than a Velocite Magnus production bike wise (custom for sure you can go crazy), read up on it.....

http://blog.velocite-bikes.com/2013/07/ ... GN3H8.dpbs

Oh and it is not brutally uncomfortable..... I raced it at Belgian Waffle 3 years ago on 27mm tires :D

But before you you chase down the stiffness rabbit hole I'd encourage you to watch this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH_AL4rxrp8

A truly good bike also accounts for flex in the system delivering max power to the road surface it isn't just overengineered

cerb
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:59 am

by cerb

I hear your concerns!

I'm 6'4", 88kg and sprint >1500W peak power on the trainer, so likely a bit more than that one the road (don't have a PM on the bike). From speaking with numerous people, my wheel flex & frame/brake rub issues are likely a combination of rider weight and my height being able to apply a large flexing moment around the BB (as the bike lays over during the sprint). The power output is apparently less of an issue - which makes sense as plenty of people can put out more power than me!

Previously rode a Crack'n'fail SuperSix which I had continual brake and frame rub with as well as needing to fix the BB every month or so as it would come loose and creak. I've also been through about 5 sets of wheels, all of which pulled spokes out or needed to be re-trued every couple of months. This included a custom wheelset with 32h F&R by a well recommended local wheel builder.

Current setup is a 2014 Venge Pro Race with Swisside Hadron wheelset and this is by FAR the best setup I've had. I do run the rear brakes fairly wide open to eliminate brake rub under full sprint, but the wheels now have ~16,000km on them without ANY issues what-so-ever.

The frame does have some mild rub marks on the inner chain stays, but nothing that is back to the raw carbon after >25,000km.

On top of your issues, I also sweat like a MOFO. As such, I've had to replace the rear brake 3 times and the gear & brake cabling about every 5,000km due to extensive corrosion - causing components to fully bind up and no longer work.


Currently looking at a new bike and am ensuring I get Di2 & Hydraulic Disc in an attempt to eliminate corrosion issues and brake rub under sprint. I'm looking for an aero bike as I only really ride flat roads and race crits. Unlike you, i'm also on a fairly tight budget!

I've narrowed it down to:

- Venge Vias Disc, but not using the Vias bar system or;
- Canyon Aeroad
- also still contemplating Scott Foil

Problem with Canyon is that if you buy their complete bikes, I don't think you can readily make spec changes. I don't want the wheels they specify and am not sold on the integrated bars due to stem length/drop combinations. If you buy the frame alone and do your own custom build, the total cost ends up being much higher as you don't get OEM pricing on the group.

As such, i'm currently leaning toward working with the LBS to put together a Venge Vias Disc, but i'm following here with interest for any other ideas!


P.S. I also smash my forearms into my bars during sprint, but throught that was more of a fit issue as I ride a 58 frame size and am not very stretched out due to my weird arm/leg length ratios...

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WonderSausage
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:51 pm

by WonderSausage

lactatehate wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 4:29 am
From firsthand experience of regularly being able to put 1200w sprints (maybe that's in your ballpark) you won't find stiffer than a Velocite Magnus production bike wise (custom for sure you can go crazy), read up on it.....
Funny you should mention that, I actually own a Velocite Magnus, and yes, it is wonderfully stiff. I built it with Pro Vibe handlebars and S-Works carbon cranks with a Power2max spider and Praxis chainrings. But due to history I won't go into, my lawyer recommends I don't ride on the road on a frame from a company that can't be reached legally for liability reasons, so the Magnus is my stationary trainer bike for Zwift (I also race cat A on Zwift). It just may be the perfect bike for serious Zwift riders who want to maintain a real-bike feel rather than go for something purpose-built like a Wattbike.

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WonderSausage
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:51 pm

by WonderSausage

alcatraz wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 3:35 am
Is your madone 9 an h2 or h1?

Aren't they different in stiffness?

/a
It's an H1 -- my fit is right between the H1 and H2 so I chose the H1 because A) it has the superior 700 series carbon (which I'm not sure is true any longer now that Trek doesn't make anything in the US) and B) it was made in the US (except when it arrived, the sticker said "assembled" in US.

Martinbong
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu May 17, 2018 2:57 pm

by Martinbong

How about colnago v2r? Not that aero, extra stiffness on bottom bracket area, pretty light


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dim
Posts: 214
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 am
Location: Cambridge UK

by dim

Scott Foil with good wheels and tyres
Giant TCR
Canyon Endurace AL
Specialized Allez Sport

Noctiluxx
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:17 pm
Location: Southern California

by Noctiluxx

Why not a Bianchi Oltre XR4? Its by far the most used aero bike on the tour. I would guess the Canyon Aeroad is a distant second. Every team, other than Lotto NL Jumbo, seem to prefer a traditional race over aero for most races.
2018 Bianchi Oltre XR4, (Celeste Matt)
2018 De Rosa SK Pininfarina (Blu)
2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL (Red)
2016 Specialized Allez DSW Sprint (Gold)
2016 Giant Anthem Advanced SX (FS)
2018 Trek Farley EX 9.8 Fatty (FS)

C36
Posts: 216
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Really curious which wheels you used.

Brake rub is a combination of frame - wheel interaction, so difficult to generalise (in cases a softer wheel won’t brake-rub with on frame and do it with another).

Chain stay rub is a lot more unusual, when you sprint is the chain rubbing against the front derailleur? (Frame flexing).
If not and the wheel really touch the chainstay... definitively something with the wheels and we should find a solution... I saw Saw few old steel frames of really powerful pros (Cipo, Zabel) and despite the limited clearance they had no marks.



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