Modern steel build recommendations

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

What steel for 12sp Campagnolo record

Cinelli Vigorelli (700 Euro) (S)
2
4%
Ritchey Road Logic (1300 Euro but actual less)
18
34%
Bottecchia leggendaria (1600 Euro)
4
8%
Wilier Superleggera (2300 Euro)
2
4%
Custom Steel (Stelbel?)
27
51%
 
Total votes: 53

kwakekeham
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:03 pm

by kwakekeham

I want to thank everyone for all the recommendations. After much searching and contacting of companies and with this being a total vanity project I didn't find what I wanted without going to full on stupid pricing. I've always built up my own bikes so 3000 - 4000 for things like a frameset was too much to swallow. I kept searching and not finding what I wanted at lower price points. Custom concepts evolved from suggestions to the modern steel designs with integrated frame routing to looking at other materials.

However, I have just placed a deposit for an original Wilier Triestina frameset that was restored and repainted by the same shop that does the cromovelato for the new versions. I had a choice between it being fully equiped as an eroica bike or the frameset, but eroica not my goal. Modern performance but stand out and retro look. It's paint method is the same but the style is not identical to the modern one (it's frame correct, chorme fork blades, pantograph of the Wilier name and symbols, chorme chain stay). Price was more in line with what I wanted to spend compared to the new reproduction.

It's still going to be a modern groupset on it. However it is going to need many bits and bobs (headset, stem, seatpost, braze on cable stop adapters, etc etc, + groupset and stuff). When I recieve the frame next week I'll post some pictures.

muti
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:09 am

by muti

Nice choice,joyfull rides and we are awaiting pictures of the final built!The cromovelato(ramato)finish is always stunning!I am also critic of the prices of steel builders ,who instead of seeing the return to steel tendency as an second(maybe even last) opportunity,they failed to catch it and overpriced the final product.As a point of reference,I cannot see how a columbus sl frameset,which has a cost of around 170-220 euros for the tubing,ends up being sold at 1700-2000 euros.Let's be honest,an experienced builder can build one in a matter of days.You made the right choice as the older frames(post 70's) have usually steeper angles which justfelt more "right"for the material.
Oftenly nowadays builders duplicate geometries made for carbon frames resulting a less engaging and less lively ride.

by Weenie


audioblazer
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:09 pm

by audioblazer

Check out kualis cycle & equilibrium cycle works from japan . Nice paint works & reasonable price

GothicCastle
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:52 am

by GothicCastle

muti wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:57 pm
As a point of reference,I cannot see how a columbus sl frameset,which has a cost of around 170-220 euros for the tubing,ends up being sold at 1700-2000 euros.Let's be honest,an experienced builder can build one in a matter of days.
It really is absurd that the builders want to eat and pay rent.

User avatar
euan
Posts: 1515
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:20 am

by euan

I don't know what you are talking about, there are no other items in a steel frame than the tubes. They arrive already cut and when you press them together they just stick in place.
"Step forward the climber and all those who worship at the altar of lightness" - R. Millar

muti
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:09 am

by muti

I respect the craftmanship required and by no way did I say that should not be paid.But I also know that an experienced builder back in the 80s who was working in a major italian brand should be able to complete at least 3 framesets per day(no finishing and paint).Now,if a builder wants to post half of his work "artisically"on instagram it's a whole different story.Βy the way,the price of columbus sl tubing today at ciclicorsa is 180euros plus 135 for the cast lugs(angles are dictated by the lug)VAT included.And that's retail price!Even Sachs lugs are not that much more expensive.Ι will not start talking about subcontractors(I have seen the video of the same builder brazing being used by 2 different brands!).Everyone is allowed to have his/hers opinions,so sarcasm is totally unnecessary.

User avatar
euan
Posts: 1515
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:20 am

by euan

Yeah, you are only seeing part of the process there. Everything else around the process of adding heat and silver needs to be accounted and paid for.

Anyway, none of these frames anyone is talking about are lugged steel with Columbus SL.

A Bob Jackson 631 is £600 or £800 for 853. Thats the level you are talking about.
"Step forward the climber and all those who worship at the altar of lightness" - R. Millar

muti
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:09 am

by muti

Wilier Superleggera ,tubing columbus sl,retail price 2400 euros(as an example).And most lugged italian frames with Columbus Spirit tubing retail for 1700 euros(Spirit retails for 235 euros).And of course every builder is not the same.I hapilly own a Zullo Inqubo and I gradly paid the asking price.I understand the complexity of butting,cutting,mittering and finally welding such a complex tube shape.By the man himself(very important for Italian frames which in my older post I clearly stated that is the only market I know when our fellow weenie asked for suggestions).Also,my problem was not your opinion(which of course you are intitled to have even if we disagree,I can only lay out some facts and you can have your own opinion),my problem was only the sarcasm.

User avatar
kgt
Posts: 6996
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:29 am
Location: Athens, Greece

by kgt

One can find amazing NOS or sligthly used steel frames for 400-800 euros. IMHO it is crazy to pay 2500 in order to buy 'modern' steel.
I got my master x-light for 600 euros and it was like new.

kwakekeham
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:03 pm

by kwakekeham

kgt wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:31 am
One can find amazing NOS or sligthly used steel frames for 400-800 euros. IMHO it is crazy to pay 2500 in order to buy 'modern' steel.
I got my master x-light for 600 euros and it was like new.
I didn't, or couldn't for the Ramato. The frame I've ended up with is a restored one and I think a lot of it has to do with the cromovelato paint from the late 70's to the 90's was not very durable. Getting it to stick to chrome was hard apparently. It's better now -- not perfect but better.

But you're right and its how I ended up where I am. I have seen NOS. Online speciality shops do have them, but being speciality there is a good 2 - 3x multiplier for the convience of them having and vetting them. A Colnago NOS ranges from 800 - 2000 with unique pieces consistently 1500 - 2000. I no doubt believe you can find a shop with one if you put in the effort. It's an effort and convience tax. I used effort and time to find what I wanted like you suggested effectively.

bikesrdangerousmmk
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:54 am

by bikesrdangerousmmk

Piggybacking: What's the story with the Barco XCR bikes?

kwakekeham
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:03 pm

by kwakekeham

So here it is. Apologies on the background. I don't have anywhere good to take photos. Overall I was a little nervous because I thought the 56 would be further from my Madone sizing, but it's more like 55 and the madone was 54.5 horizontal and I wanted a tiny bit bigger after my fit I talked about earlier.. The wheelbase is longer but that's how things were in apparently 1982. Spacing while officially 126, it measure 128, so it's dead on for being either made to be rebuilt with old parts or just a little wiggle and a modern wheel fits in.
Image

Here is an imgur library of some quick photos. The overalls aren't great due to the backgrounds but up close really shows the details.

https://imgur.com/a/wVSq0no

Nobody at work nor the shop owner agrees with my modern groupset on it, but that means I'm doing it right for me. He also pointed out to me everything he didn't like about the new supperleggera. Small points, but he wasn't keen on those changes... or a modern groupset... also said only super record, no record for it.... Not made of money.

Also had a 1952 real Ramato.... prior to the chrome and the paint, it was apparently dipped or electroplated in actual copper. My understanding wasn't great (not my native language). And I got to see a NOS campagnolo MTB groupset from the 1980's/90's which had the largest rim brakes I've seen in my life.

muti
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:09 am

by muti

Stunning!Enjoy it!I also like the Campagnolo 1010 droupouts and the rear brake cable routing better than those in the newer model.Do you know if the ramato refinish was done by Massimo(Faggin)? Thanks in advance,congrats again!

kwakekeham
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:03 pm

by kwakekeham

Image

The bike got built, but not without it's problems. First, Lufthansa. What should have been an Air Canada Flight and a $50 fee was a Lufthansa inital flight where they decidedly charged me $400 to ship the bike even though booked through Air Canada and explicitly listed as and AC flight. ANGER. Lufthansa decided my paint job needed some rough handling and proceeded to scuff it up a little. Lufthansa is literally the only airline that I've ever dealt with that has problems with bikes -- from high fees to bad handling. It's the only one that seems to be able to untrue a bike wheel in an EVOC bag. Anyway, so that's the excuse for the 3 - 5 minor paint inperfections. I'll call them my lufthansa marks.

Re-chroming made for one fun time with the headset. Need to remove some chrome for the headset bit on the fork.

Deda Murex Stem looks great, but as reviews indicated it has some lack of stiffness due to the dual bolt configuration. It's not perfect but acceptable. I'm very much used to more modern bars so this took many times of adjusting shifters and bar angle to get it "right" for the Deda Special 65. It'll always feel "wrong" compared to years on the modern compact parts but I've got it where I want it. Bar tape colour was a flourescent lighting mistake. Looked black in store, more green in real life, but it kind of grows on me. Several people have said they like it.

Originally wanted silver seatpost by I really wanted 0mm offset, so the 3T zero25 works out well. The fit took a little work initially.

Okay. Now the thing that will peave everyone. My current carbon bike has EPS. I love it. There was some things about 12sp record that ergonomically I wasn't feeling on the rim brake version with the lever 2. On hydraulic it was fine, on rim mechanical.... I checked some other builds out that had it and similar problem in local shop. For the 2800 CAD price (after some wheeling and dealing ) I wasn't down... and trimming seemed to be a foreign concept -- felt like an idiot unable to trim the FD because I had gotten so used to electronic. Store demo Derailleurs and shifters from V1 + V3 Power unit and interface they wanted rid of. However cheaping out next lead me to a problem. I wanted ultratorque potenza crank which meant it was the Hydraulically optomized. I could have done improved powertorque but didn't know how the cable protector in the BB was going to play with this (I guess there was an athena EPS technically)... meaning larger distance from small to big chainring. It's setup-able but not perfect as a result. I could not justify another 500 CAD to make up the difference in cranksets to Record and just kind of brain farted about Chorus existing. So after a lot of fiddling it's good, but not perfect in the extremes, but I'm keen enough not to use those setups naturally.

But how, does a 1982 bike with no internal routing have an EPS system. Hole in the lower BB for drainage or artistic looks -- and a tiny hole of 3mm in the seatpost (soldering time). Cutting and extending the interface cables and heatshrinking it with the brake cable through the loops on the top tube. So now the Eroica people should be unhappy and the modern build people should be unhappy -- which is perfect because I'm happy. The excessive thickness of the seatpost and nearly solid aluminum in that region for the mounting system meant my engineering senses weren't tingling (my original background is structural mechanics) -- keep an eye on the region -- however the cable is stuck so I need to eventually pull it all out but since the pu is in the seat post and the RD cable is taped in place (see below) it'll wait.

The one ghetto thing to fix is the rear EPS cable is held to the stay with a 3m chain stay protector film in combo with a zip tie (my bane, soooo hideous).

Also, yes, dual head units. I'm in an advance test group for one of them so sometimes things get buggy. Forgot to take them off... and next day back to smoke in the skies. Unfortunately BC being on quite a lot of fire (over 500 wild fires) really put a damper on riding but got in a bit.

Few more pictures
https://imgur.com/a/83YV0aj

by Weenie


User avatar
vejnemojnen
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:11 pm

by vejnemojnen

Should have chosen Deda Piega (same as RHM02, but with 26.0mm clamp) or even Procraft RR compact (same shape, less drop and reach).

some bikes with the procraft bars:

https://www.pedalroom.com/bike/pesenti- ... odel-31752

on this bike, you can compare them to deda piegas:
https://www.pedalroom.com/bike/fausto-coppi-20181 as the pictures feature the bike with both bars.. :) The procraft is quite nice, around 280 grams in 44cc, 3ple butted 7050 alloy, 125 drop-70 reach, works pretty well with campag levers. :welcome:

A setback seatpost would be nicer though. I don't really like straight posts on road bikes, especially not on lugged steel

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