Yet another disc brake woes tread (this time about standards...)

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
2old4this
Posts: 353
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:26 am

by 2old4this

I am building my first bike with disc brakes and know why disc breaks are not taking over as quickly as some people think disc brakes should.

No matter what you think about rim brakes, one thing we all agree, for the most part, you take one brand's brakes and put on a bike. It'll work. Yes, there are exceptions (tire clearance is one) but still...

On the disc brakes, there is no such thing.

- Brands are not compatible with each other
You can't simply take one of these and use on another one: Shimano, Magura, Tektro, Hope, Avid, Formula, Hayes, Fox, DTSWISS, Rockshox, Bengal, Quad, Echo,Giant...
- Even within the same brand's offerings, all calipers/hoses are not interchangeable.
- You'll need an adaptor to use the same caliper on two different bikes.
- Rotor sizes will force you to use different adaptors on the same bike
- Seriously what's up with all these rotor sizes (140, 160, 170, 180, 185, 203) ?
- Is your fork Flat mount or Post mount?
- Mechanical or hydraulic (or their electronic versions)
- If hydraulic, what type of fluid does you system use?
- Obviously bleeding kits are not compatible with each other.

I am sure I am missing some other "standards" but I think disc brakes are going to take a hit on the used bike/part market. After that, whenever a standard emerges, disc brakes may takeover ...

aaronpass
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:32 am

by aaronpass

1. You can use shimano rotors with sram brakes and visa versa. Same with other manufacturers.
2. Why would you want to change have different brand calipers/hoses and levers? They come as a set, so it isn't an issue.
3. The heavier braking you do, the larger rotor size you should get. The larger ones provide better braking and cool quicker. A quick adapter can make it so you can use any size rotor.
4. Road trends are going to flat mount, MTB still post.
5. Buy hydraulic if you want more modulation and power.
6. Use whatever comes with the manufacturer you prefer.
7. Buy the bleeding kit for what you have.

Sounds like you should just stick with rim brakes since you have so many issues.
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by Weenie


2old4this
Posts: 353
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:26 am

by 2old4this

Kind of hard to disagree with you.
If one wants to try out the disc brakes, he/she should buy a prebuilt bike. No interoperability/compatibility isssues.
If you are like me (keep most of your components but change frames frequently, or customize a component here and there) you may be able to move without issues. But most likely, you'll have some migration issues.
For me, the most logical thing to do is to wait a little longer and see how/if/when a semi-standard emerges...

ooo
Posts: 570
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm

by ooo

@2old4this
you forgot rotor mount options (6-bolt, centerlock)
aaronpass wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 4:38 pm
1. You can use shimano rotors with sram brakes and visa versa. Same with other manufacturers.
Try Shimano XT/XTR rotor with Sram/Avid BB7 - they are not compatible - spider will hit caliper brake pads (possible to fix by trimming)
'

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LeDuke
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Location: Front Range, CO

by LeDuke

I’m trying to figure out why he mentioned companies that don’t make brakes.

The vast majority of the things you mentioned are non-issues. Consult your LBS if this is beyond you.

Plenty of people are able to buy and build custom bikes with no problem.


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2old4this
Posts: 353
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:26 am

by 2old4this

ooo wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 5:10 pm
@2old4this
you forgot rotor mount options (6-bolt, centerlock)
Thanks for reminding that.
To add to the list there is the size of the the through axle (and now Mavic's Speed Release...)

If the manufacturers can resolve this standards issue, discs can revive the bike industry. If they can't, discs brakes will frustrate the users like me and effectively stop them from buying again (or upgrading.) In the short term, this is good for the manufacturers (most of us are curious about the discs.) In the long term, it can kill all the small manufacturers...

As a side note, I really am not trying to pick on the discs. My first build has been an interesting learning experience, and I just wanted to share.

2old4this
Posts: 353
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:26 am

by 2old4this

LeDuke wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:31 pm
I’m trying to figure out why he mentioned companies that don’t make brakes.
The list got to that point because of the bleeding kits. Not all bleeding kits are compatible with all those brands. Don't know how it makes a difference but different kits list different compatibility lists. :noidea:

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LeDuke
Posts: 1281
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Location: Front Range, CO

by LeDuke

2old4this wrote:
LeDuke wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:31 pm
I’m trying to figure out why he mentioned companies that don’t make brakes.
The list got to that point because of the bleeding kits. Not all bleeding kits are compatible with all those brands. Don't know how it makes a difference but different kits list different compatibility lists. :noidea:
DT Swiss? Fox?

I don’t have a bleed kit for my DT Swiss brakes, because they don’t exist. I don’t have a bleed kit for my DT Swiss OPM ODL fork, because it doesn’t require bleeding. Nor does my Fox 32 Fit4 Factory or Float DPS shock.

DT Swiss doesn’t make a bleed kit, nor have they ever made a product requiring one, AFAICT.


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bilwit
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

the thru-axle stuff is a huge mess

However I don't think all the standards is "holding it back" in the industry AT ALL. All these different standards are only a problem for people who build up their bikes like us but represent a very, very small minority. Primarily the people who buy bikes are joe-schmoe who walk into an LBS and ask what bike they should buy, then take it back there whenever it needs servicing, thus avoiding all those issues completey.

2old4this
Posts: 353
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:26 am

by 2old4this

bilwit wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 7:03 pm
the thru-axle stuff is a huge mess

However I don't think all the standards is "holding it back" in the industry AT ALL. All these different standards are only a problem for people who build up their bikes like us but represent a very, very small minority. Primarily the people who buy bikes are joe-schmoe who walk into an LBS and ask what bike they should buy, then take it back there whenever it needs servicing, thus avoiding all those issues completey.
I have to agree with you on this to a point. I like building my own bikes. So, switching them between builds is important (and yes I am in the minority.) I do not see how that is possible with disc bikes.
Most people I know (even the experienced ones) do own 1-3 bikes, and buying a full bike is normal for them (which avoids all these standards issues.)

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Miller
Posts: 1351
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:54 pm
Location: Reading, UK

by Miller

I like building bikes and have lately taken on a build with Campag Potenza disk. I have never installed hydraulic hoses before so doing that and then filling with mineral oil was new to me. The Campag training videos on youtube are good and in practice it was all straightforward. Obviously I have kept things simple by using matched components from one manufacturer but why would one not do that? There may be reasons, in fact, but then you need a good grip on what you're doing and be philosophical about setbacks if you're going off-piste technically.

As a side note it seems to me that the proportion of people assembling their own bikes is rather low these days. Even on this forum people are often discussing buying complete bikes. But where's the fun in that...

joejack951
Posts: 427
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Location: Wilmington, DE

by joejack951

2old4this wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 7:21 pm
I have to agree with you on this to a point. I like building my own bikes. So, switching them between builds is important (and yes I am in the minority.) I do not see how that is possible with disc bikes.
Road disc has essentially settled on 12mm front and rear thru axle, 100mm spacing up front and 135mm rear. So long as you buy a new frame/fork that matches those two items, everything will swap over. Even if you had a 15mm thru axle fork to start and went to a 12mm thru axle fork, you can easily convert your wheels to work with the 12mm fork. I had some issues with my disc build but most of them came down to my frame vendor not providing good information on which thru axles I needed (or simply just providing them like most frame vendors do) and my desire to use Campy Chorus mechanical levers (this was pre-hydro Campy).

Hexsense
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

i'm about to step into disc brake world too.
what i plan is to use Juin Tech R1.
It is hybrid cable + closed system hydraulic system, so no bleeding needed.
I can keep the shifter with cable brake.
then rotor type is depending on wheel hub.
Thru axle type of the frame dictate what end cap adapter i need for wheel hub.

I think the compatibility is not too bad.

CallumRD1
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:54 pm

by CallumRD1

joejack951 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 8:09 pm
2old4this wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 7:21 pm
I have to agree with you on this to a point. I like building my own bikes. So, switching them between builds is important (and yes I am in the minority.) I do not see how that is possible with disc bikes.
Road disc has essentially settled on 12mm front and rear thru axle, 100mm spacing up front and 135mm rear. So long as you buy a new frame/fork that matches those two items, everything will swap over. Even if you had a 15mm thru axle fork to start and went to a 12mm thru axle fork, you can easily convert your wheels to work with the 12mm fork. I had some issues with my disc build but most of them came down to my frame vendor not providing good information on which thru axles I needed (or simply just providing them like most frame vendors do) and my desire to use Campy Chorus mechanical levers (this was pre-hydro Campy).
The road standard is 12x142mm at the rear, not 135mm.

by Weenie


bilwit
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

joejack951 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 8:09 pm
2old4this wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 7:21 pm
I have to agree with you on this to a point. I like building my own bikes. So, switching them between builds is important (and yes I am in the minority.) I do not see how that is possible with disc bikes.
Road disc has essentially settled on 12mm front and rear thru axle, 100mm spacing up front and 135mm rear. So long as you buy a new frame/fork that matches those two items, everything will swap over. Even if you had a 15mm thru axle fork to start and went to a 12mm thru axle fork, you can easily convert your wheels to work with the 12mm fork. I had some issues with my disc build but most of them came down to my frame vendor not providing good information on which thru axles I needed (or simply just providing them like most frame vendors do) and my desire to use Campy Chorus mechanical levers (this was pre-hydro Campy).
CallumRD1 wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 12:21 am
The road standard is 12x142mm at the rear, not 135mm.
even then the thread pitch standard isn't always the same regardless.. :x

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