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SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:57 pm
by Calnago
Paragon may have dropouts but there’s still a lot of leeway on the builders part as to how those dropouts ultimately get positioned which can greatly affect the ultimate position of the hanger and rear derailleur. Also, do we know that the Campy specs are the same as Shimano for the placement of the rear derailleur? I have not seen them to compare. I would think maybe they would try to at least make them compatible. The last thing we need is about 5 different hangers for each frame to go with the various groupsets.

SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:57 pm
by Weenie

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:23 pm
by morrisond
Campy is using Shimano RD for the Direct Mount Dropouts.

Take a look at Paragon's site - if the the Dropouts are square to each other and the distance between them correct the Dropout Should be in the right spot - pretty hard to screw it up for a Custom Builder, Especially on Thru axle - if the Thru axle fits it should be good to go. If someone builds a frame without these dimensions right they shouldn't be a custom builder.

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:49 pm
by TonyM
wintershade wrote:Thanks all for your input.

The direction I’m leaning at the moment is:
1) Sticking with SR 11 for this Ti bike — my sportive/endurance bike. Primarily for aesthetic reasons, serviciblity, and ability to pick up neutral support wheels.
2) Down the line, selling my Canyon Ultimate SLX 9 Pro (Record 11) for a Dogma 10 SR12 EPS (once that’s released) race bike.

Then I’ll have something “classic” and something ultra-modern. But I could be talked out of this....

I’m also not that fast, so there is the duche bag factor of SR 12 I’d rather avoid, even though for me this is more about respecting engineering and design excellence than about being faster.
I agree with you with the classic....but the ultra modern will soon get “outdated” as Pinarello will certainly announce the new model in 2019....marketing like they did with the F8/F10. I don’t say yo should not get it but be aware of that. Colnago doesn’t change their top tier model every 2-3 years....

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:19 pm
by Calnago
morrisond wrote:Campy is using Shimano RD for the Direct Mount Dropouts.

Take a look at Paragon's site - if the the Dropouts are square to each other and the distance between them correct the Dropout Should be in the right spot - pretty hard to screw it up for a Custom Builder, Especially on Thru axle - if the Thru axle fits it should be good to go. If someone builds a frame without these dimensions right they shouldn't be a custom builder.
Sounds like the OP has made a decision to go the standard hanger route. And i get the impression he’s not going disc, so no thru axle. But still, dropouts being square to each other and spaced appropriately is a given for sure. It’s the rotational aspect of them that can place the ultimate position where the derailleur attaches at different points in space. That’s one of the aspects of the hooded dropouts from Paragon that give builders some leeway in where they attach the stays and some flexibility in angles etc.

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:03 am
by wintershade
Correct. I’m going rim brakes for the Ti bike, so no thru axel. Hangers are http://www.enigmabikes.com/wp-content/u ... eldrop.jpg

My builder’s attention to detail is off the charts. He’d never set me up with hideous drop outs.

More concerned with this 11 v 12 gear issue. The more I think about it, the more it seems like I’d have to go “all in” for 12 speed to make sense. I have 4 wheel sets, 3 bikes, a direct drive trainer. It would all have to go 12 speed.

For the next race bike — either Dogma F10 or maybe a Bianchi XR4, but I’m not crazy about Celeste.

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:08 am
by alexneumuller
I ordered a Colnago C64 with SP11 Mechanical which was due for delivery to me end of April. However now that I have found out about 12speed, I have asked the shop to see by when they expect to ship SP12 and if I can change it. They did say they already had the bike build for me fully, but as the SP11 was only installed and not ridden yet, they will see what the Distributor says and come up with a plan.

I have bought a number of bikes from them, so I m hoping they treat me gently, and hopefully I can change to SP12. And if it takes two/three week more than I can wait.

I could of course keep SP11, but I want the latest version. One of the reason of why I m getting the C64, as I sold my C60 for it.



wintershade wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:19 pm
A few months ago, I placed an order for my dream bike — a money is no object custom Titanium build. It’s an endurance-race geometry for Sportives, Haute Route, etc. I selected a mechanical SR 11 drive train because I prefer the feel of mechical to EPS (so let’s not debate that here) and I wanted the bike to have a modern classic feel (similar to a Singer 911).

Should I ask the builder to switch to SR 12 (he already ordered SR11 stuff). I don’t care about cost difference or waiting a few months for parts to show up. Part of me feels like a dummy, dropping this kind of money for my “perfect” bike only to spec it with an outdated drive train. On the other hand, 11 speed does have some advantages: such as being able to more easily share wheels between my other bikes (or get a wheel off support vehicles on multi day sportives, etc), being able to drop on my direct drive trainer, being able to find parts if I break down in the Alps, etc.

Main draw of 12 is newness/bling factor, and obviously the extra gear given I live in very hilly area with some steep climbs and intend to take this bike to Alps, Dolomites, etc. Some of the ergonomic changes also sound appealing. I’m undecided on which Group aesthetically looks better.

Help!

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:22 am
by wintershade
alexneumuller wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:08 am
I ordered a Colnago C64 with SP11 Mechanical which was due for delivery to me end of April. However now that I have found out about 12speed, I have asked the shop to see by when they expect to ship SP12 and if I can change it. They did say they already had the bike build for me fully, but as the SP11 was only installed and not ridden yet, they will see what the Distributor says and come up with a plan.

I have bought a number of bikes from them, so I m hoping they treat me gently, and hopefully I can change to SP12. And if it takes two/three week more than I can wait.

I could of course keep SP11, but I want the latest version. One of the reason of why I m getting the C64, as I sold my C60 for it.



wintershade wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:19 pm
A few months ago, I placed an order for my dream bike — a money is no object custom Titanium build. It’s an endurance-race geometry for Sportives, Haute Route, etc. I selected a mechanical SR 11 drive train because I prefer the feel of mechical to EPS (so let’s not debate that here) and I wanted the bike to have a modern classic feel (similar to a Singer 911).

Should I ask the builder to switch to SR 12 (he already ordered SR11 stuff). I don’t care about cost difference or waiting a few months for parts to show up. Part of me feels like a dummy, dropping this kind of money for my “perfect” bike only to spec it with an outdated drive train. On the other hand, 11 speed does have some advantages: such as being able to more easily share wheels between my other bikes (or get a wheel off support vehicles on multi day sportives, etc), being able to drop on my direct drive trainer, being able to find parts if I break down in the Alps, etc.

Main draw of 12 is newness/bling factor, and obviously the extra gear given I live in very hilly area with some steep climbs and intend to take this bike to Alps, Dolomites, etc. Some of the ergonomic changes also sound appealing. I’m undecided on which Group aesthetically looks better.

Help!
Sounds like our situation is very similar. Good relationship with shop, 11 speed group on hand but not ridden, etc.

How many bikes do you have? I see a lot in signature but are some formers, or all still in your stable?

I’ve been obsessing about this all weekend, and one of the issues I’m trying to work through is the hassle factor of having 1 bike 12 speed. Being able to swap wheels across bikes is nice. It’s actully part of the reason I’ve steered away from discs on this build.

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:32 am
by alexneumuller
Yes, I do hope that my relationship with my shop will help.

All bikes listed in my signature are current, but divided into two locations due to travelling a lot. All these bikes are either Shimano (15%) & SRAM (85%). If I listed all my old bikes that I have sold or crashed, then I be typing for a while. :)

The C64 will be my first bike with Campa again, after a 5 year hiatus, and it will be coming with Bora Ultra 50. In regards to swapping wheels; I have a set of DTSWISS 1400 OXIUT wheels for SRAM, but have bought another rearwheel of this make with Campa Hub; so I can put a pure climbing set of wheels on it. So that solved me wanting to swap wheels from deep section to climbing/crap weather wheels, and they are pretty good wheels and not expensive.

I m still waiting to hear from the shop, but hopefully get a response by middle of next week to find out delivery date of SP12 to the UK.

wintershade wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:22 am
alexneumuller wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:08 am
I ordered a Colnago C64 with SP11 Mechanical which was due for delivery to me end of April. However now that I have found out about 12speed, I have asked the shop to see by when they expect to ship SP12 and if I can change it. They did say they already had the bike build for me fully, but as the SP11 was only installed and not ridden yet, they will see what the Distributor says and come up with a plan.

I have bought a number of bikes from them, so I m hoping they treat me gently, and hopefully I can change to SP12. And if it takes two/three week more than I can wait.

I could of course keep SP11, but I want the latest version. One of the reason of why I m getting the C64, as I sold my C60 for it.



wintershade wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:19 pm
A few months ago, I placed an order for my dream bike — a money is no object custom Titanium build. It’s an endurance-race geometry for Sportives, Haute Route, etc. I selected a mechanical SR 11 drive train because I prefer the feel of mechical to EPS (so let’s not debate that here) and I wanted the bike to have a modern classic feel (similar to a Singer 911).

Should I ask the builder to switch to SR 12 (he already ordered SR11 stuff). I don’t care about cost difference or waiting a few months for parts to show up. Part of me feels like a dummy, dropping this kind of money for my “perfect” bike only to spec it with an outdated drive train. On the other hand, 11 speed does have some advantages: such as being able to more easily share wheels between my other bikes (or get a wheel off support vehicles on multi day sportives, etc), being able to drop on my direct drive trainer, being able to find parts if I break down in the Alps, etc.

Main draw of 12 is newness/bling factor, and obviously the extra gear given I live in very hilly area with some steep climbs and intend to take this bike to Alps, Dolomites, etc. Some of the ergonomic changes also sound appealing. I’m undecided on which Group aesthetically looks better.

Help!
Sounds like our situation is very similar. Good relationship with shop, 11 speed group on hand but not ridden, etc.

How many bikes do you have? I see a lot in signature but are some formers, or all still in your stable?

I’ve been obsessing about this all weekend, and one of the issues I’m trying to work through is the hassle factor of having 1 bike 12 speed. Being able to swap wheels across bikes is nice. It’s actully part of the reason I’ve steered away from discs on this build.

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:44 am
by Miller
The hassle factor of moving to 12 is analogous to a move to disc brakes from rim brakes. You have a non-compatible bike for a while. Sometimes you need to bite the bullet.

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:10 pm
by derosa2000
Colnago will offer bikes with Campy SR 12s from end May/early June , prices are not finalised at the moment .

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:39 pm
by bm0p700f
This should not be a question. The answer is of course 12 speed. I think it looks good and I like what looks best and works. Besides 12 offers some interesting possibilities once parts become available.

I am sure what ever you choose though it will be s lovely bike.

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:37 pm
by jih
11 speed is only the standard for the time being. 12 will be the standard soon if Shimano follow. The excepton possibly being SRAM if they adopt the same 1x12 standard from their MTB groupsets.

I'd also go with a DM hanger. Because it's much cleaner with the 12sp groupsets to not have a 'hanger hanger'

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:54 pm
by wintershade
Miller wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:44 am
The hassle factor of moving to 12 is analogous to a move to disc brakes from rim brakes. You have a non-compatible bike for a while. Sometimes you need to bite the bullet.
Yeah, I hear you. I guess the question is whether it’s really worth biting the bullet considering my specific circumstances — building a race endurance bike primaily used for international sportive events, multiday rides, and showing off at the occasional brisk group ride.

Will 12 speed really become standard anytime soon such that when I crash in Liberon France the little bike shop there has a new 12 speed RD on hand? It’s hard enough to find Campy 11 sometimes.

For a balls to the wall race bike it’s a no brainer. For next race bike I think 12 speed EPS will be the answer. I’m still not sold on discs. The H11 hoods are ugly as a the hunchback of notre dame.

It’s too late to go disc on this bike though in retrospect it might have made some sense. Frame is built. I like the rim brake aesthetics better.

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:02 pm
by jih
Sad as it is, if easy replacements in small bike shops is your main concern, Campag isn't the best choice.

Two years from now 12s will be as common as 11s in the bike shops.

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:45 pm
by c60rider
We all had 9sp then 10sp and now it's 11 that most of our bikes have got. We all upgraded for the first time at some point and 12 speed is a standard that is likely to be around for many years to come so if you're speccing a new bike then it's best to go with the latest kit. 12 speed is the latest in the next month when it's on sale so go with that. It's compatible with a lot of existing stuff like wheels, chaintool, bottom brackets etc so it's only the drivetrain that's the main upgrade. Front and rear mech, cassette, chainset, chain, ergolevers. Not a huge cost out of the overall total. Go for 12!

Re: SR 11 vs 12 for custom Ti build

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:45 pm
by Weenie