Shimano 11 cassette with Campag-can’t get it right

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xcnick
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by xcnick

It’s widely reported that 11 spacing is so close that different cassettes can be used without any issues and I know a lot of people do it with perfect shifting. However I can’t get the indexing quite right. Hope someone can point out what’s going on...

(The hanger is aligned-I have a DAG tool and components and brand new inc Campag cable set)
In some lower gears around 8/9 it acts like the cable need more tension but if you tension it correctly for these gears then the higher gears change like there is too much cable tension and over shifts when you downshift. I’ve tried 3 different Shimano cassettes... :noidea:

by Weenie


graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

That's because the spacing isn't as close as some on the internet have reported or might think.
Too many people on the internet tend to just repeat what they read somewhere else on the internet without actually referencing anything authoritative ...

12-25 Shimano and Campag spacing is probably the closest to being the same and it's a relatively narrow-range cassette so that's where you have the greatest chance of getting an OK shift, but it still won't be spot on.

The wider the range of the cassette, the more difficulty you will get in organising acceptable indexing in a mismatched set-up, as the system relies an a known amount of chain between jockey and cassette, as well as accurately calibrated spacings, a known flexibility range in the chain and a known amount of compressibility in the cable outer, as well as a known spring tension in the rear mech and a mechanically-defined ratio of movement of the derailleur to amount of cable recovery in the lever, set by counterbalancing the known quantities of spring tension and cable tension. In a wider range cassette, in the middle of the shift range, where the maximum accuracy is needed, you are already challenged by the amount of free chain being increased - add in spacing that is slightly different to the design parameters and you will find errors will creep in usually at the extremes - dial those out at the "top", on the small cogs, and you'll find errors in the middle and bottom and vice versa.

Additional to those factors, 11-up, 12-up and 13-up all have different spacings at the top end in Campag world (which Shimano don't) and there are different spacings at the bottom end of the various triplets as well, in Campag world - so you will get variations in how well "Frankensystems" will shift simply because the initial limit screw positions and resulting cable tensions that are set on the cable at the top end are slightly different between different cassette sizes. In an all-Campag system, in practical terms, because all these factors exist within a known design envelope, you can swap cassettes without having to tweak the set-up with a fair degree of impunity and shifting will be acceptable.

Even then, Campag recommend in EPS systems that a cassette of very different range should have a new zero-set done, if it is swapped in to substitute for one already set-for.

You also get variations as a result of frame geometry, chainset sizes and hanger design. Again, in a complete system, these all exist within a known envelope and are compensated and designed for, within the boundaries that each manufacturer specifies for their systems.

However, if you throw in a variable *not* accounted for, like a third party cassette, it may and may not produce acceptable shifting.

The correctly-spaced Campag cassettes will, of course, shift perfectly with a correctly set-up Campag system ... but are very unlikely to be spot-on with a Shimano system ... and vice versa.

Once you factor any amount of wear and tear or dirt into the system, you are throwing in another variable, so it gets still more dubious as a proposition, as does using in a third party chain.

It also all depends on what you regard as acceptable. Some users have a much wider definition of what they'll put up with and how much fettling they have to do and how often, than do others ... me, I want it to work spot on, all the time, with a minimum of messing around (bikes are for riding, not preening), so anyone that wants the same should probably use a system as a system rather than trying to second-guess three sets of very competent engineers (Campag's, SRAM's and Shimano's) and a combined R and D budget of several million Euros :-D
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grumpus
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by grumpus

Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to write this. Very thorough and helpful answer. Enjoyed reading it.

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PinaRene
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by PinaRene

Today I got my 11-30 Ultegra cassette in, and I am going to use it on a full Campy Record 2014 setup. Normally there I use a 11-28 setup , but because of a trip to Flandres tomorrow I might use the 30 icw the 50/39 front I use.

We are going to ride 80km of the Tour the Flandres course with all the heroic climbs and cobble stones areas. On my other Ultegra 11-28 setup shifting is perfect - really no problem at all on my Bora or Hyperon wheelsand chain is a Campagnolo Record. Shifting in the stand with the 11-30 was also perfect - so I don't think I will have any problems, but I'll keep you updated.
Last edited by PinaRene on Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Always appreciative of Graeme’s input here and couldn’t agree more. I’ve said this before... that I will spend as much time as it takes to get a system comprised of fully compatible parts to work perfectly, but I’ve gotten to the point where I won’t spend 5 minutes extra on a system of incompatible parts if I can get it to work just “ok”, because it usually ends up in something less than perfect no matter how long you spend on it. And who wants that.
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graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

grumpus wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:19 pm
Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to write this. Very thorough and helpful answer. Enjoyed reading it.
My pleasure :-D
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
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xcnick
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by xcnick

Yes thanks so much graeme_f_k for taking the time to reply in such detail. The point about what people deem as acceptable is very true.

As I can no longer stand the feel of Shimano sti’s since using Campag, I’ll have to submit and replace the freehub body to Campag and do it properly.

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

I'll share my experience. Lovely Colnago Extreme Power, Campy Record 11. I decided I would save some weight by using an 11-30 Sram Red cassette. Lots of people do it and report that it works "perfectly". End result - I could choose which end of the cassette I wanted to function properly. I chose the big end so I wouldn't have problems climbing. However shifts from the 11 to the 12, and 12 to the 13 cog all required an extra push on the shifter, and while it wasn't noisy, there was always some noise on various cogs and well as some odd intermitent clicks. I used a Sram Red chain thinking the best thing was to match the chain to the cassette. I put up with this set up for a few months and then obtained a Campy freehub body for the Shamal Ultra wheels and installed a Chorus 11-29 cassette and a Record chain. Result: perfect shifting and complete silence. No adjustments needed, ever.

Interestingly, with the Sram chain, the front shifting was every bit as good as with the Campy chain. In fact I find that the Campy chain seems to bind on the front derailleur a bit more than the Sram chain. There is momentary resistance to the rotation of the cranks when shifting to the big ring. (FD height and alignment is spot on).

The lesson here is a point I have made before, on all things Campagnolo, ignore graeme_f_k at your peril.
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Toby
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by Toby

Yes, thanks for the explanation! That's disappointing, though, given Shimano's aversion to nice cassette sizes (especially below DA). The (theoretical) ability to use Campy cassettes was something I was looking forward to about going 11-speed this year.

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boysa
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by boysa

Well, I guess I'm an outlier. I've run all sorts of combinations and never had a single problem. I started with Super Record and slowly started mixing and matching all sorts of components, mostly to save a few bucks after the occasional crash. I was always using 90% Campagnolo, mostly substituting cranks and chainrings, but eventually I felt Campagnolo was stagnating and wanted to try something new. Of course, switching to Shimano leaves one with a bunch of Campy-splined hubs!

Currently running (and racing the hell out of) Rotor 3D cranks (P2M) with Praxis rings inserted in a Kogel bottom bracket using a Campy 11 chain with a Connex quick link on Dura Ace 9100 FD/RD tied to a Campagnolo Chorus 11-25 cassette. Sometimes 11-23.

Flawless.

Of course, I've read about many people having issues, so maybe I'm just lucky. Or perhaps it has to do with the fact I ride a fairly small frame. I don't know.

Edit: I'm an idiot... Just reread the OP and realized it's Shimano cassette.
Last edited by boysa on Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DJT21
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by DJT21

Have you tried adjusting the "B screw" (or Campag equivalent)? I've run allsorts of mix n match cassettes/mechs/shifters and I always find they run best with the B screw wound in so the jockey wheel is closest to the cassette.

I used Campag 11 with an Ultegra 12-25 cassette and it shifted perfectly IIRC.

alcatraz
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by alcatraz

I've also found that running a 10t (or 12t if space allows) upper pulley wheel with big+small teeth to improve shifting. This because it reduces the chain deflection.

Also it's useful I think to do an eye inspection of the upper pulley wheel. I don't always trust the derailleur to give the upper pulley wheel perfect alignment with a perfectly aligned hanger. Sometimes the derailleur has a certain bend in the cage (designed or produced by cage spring tension) in a problematic area of the cassette (small cogs in this case). For this I'd eye the upper pulley wheel in all planes to ensure it's in plane with the cassette at those cogs.

Sometimes the issue of losing indexing in the other end of cassette is caused by the upper pulley wheel not being properly aligned. Not necessarily by cog spacing on the cassette. It's easy to jump to conclusion here.

DJT21 is also right when he mentions the upper pulley wheel to cassette distance. It's important to keep this low. If your derailleur isn't designed to play well with the cassette size then the problem could persist even with a campy cassette. (To clear the big cog you sacrifice small cog shifting on undersized derailleurs = your symptom)

/a

AJS914
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by AJS914

Campagnolo Chorus 11-25 cassette. Sometimes 11-23.
I used Campag 11 with an Ultegra 12-25 cassette and it shifted perfectly IIRC.
According to Graeme you guys are using the most compatible cassette to make this work. Graeme, thanks for the detailed explanation.

Boshk
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by Boshk

I was actually thinking of going down that route too purely for the availability & cost.
The ultegra 11-30 or 11-32 would be nice for holidays with climbs.

I know Campagnolo does Potenza 11-32, anyone have experience with it on a Non Potenza system.... Chorus or Record or SR?

My Chorus is the 'standard' rear derailleur which I assume is short cage
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robertbb
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by robertbb

Boshk wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:01 am
I was actually thinking of going down that route too purely for the availability & cost.
The ultegra 11-30 or 11-32 would be nice for holidays with climbs.

I know Campagnolo does Potenza 11-32, anyone have experience with it on a Non Potenza system.... Chorus or Record or SR?

My Chorus is the 'standard' rear derailleur which I assume is short cage
With a 50/34 chainset, I run Chorus 12-29 cassettes out on the road (pretty much all terrain), but switch to a Potenza 11-32 when I go alpine and it works perfectly (medium cage HO rear mech). Full chorus 2015+ drivetrain.

One word of warning: use the lockring that comes with the Potenza cassette (which looks different to the lockrings on C/R/SR cassettes)!!!!! On a recent trip I took the 11-32 with me but didn't bring its own lockring. Tried using the lockring off the chorus cassette and while it did tighten the potenza cassette to the hub body tightly, when shifting into the 11 the chain would drop off completely. The C/R/SR lockring is wider and doesn't leave enough of the potenza 11's smallest cogs' teeth exposed to actually grab the chain.

I have no idea if the lockring from an 11-29 C/R/SR cassette would be any different as I don't have any other 11t- C/R/SR cassettes
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by Weenie


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