FD-R9100 low limit problem

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
User avatar
ave
Posts: 1744
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:15 pm
Location: Hungary

by ave

I've just installed 9100 on a Cervelo S5 frame (both new), and I have a problem with low gears.
I can't get the derailleur to move towards the frame enough to clear the chain when on the biggest sprockets.
Actually I'm already rubbing when using the 2nd biggest, see photo below.
I am using an FSA K-Force Light Power2max 24mm chainset using FSA's own BBright adapter.
The same crankset is okay in a LOOK586SL (with FD-9000, but that's BSA) and in an '12 Cervelo S5 frame too. (with FD-7800)
The limit screw is fully out. Actually trimming from the normal low position does not move the cage at all, just slacks the cable.
One "solution" I can think of is to tilt the cage inwards, but then I'll have problems in high gears, as it's just about right there now.
Another solution is to move the inner ring away from the frame somehow. (possibly the whole crankset, but it's K-Force Light, not possible to add a spacer at all.
Is there a "standard" where the chain should be straight between the big ring and whatever sprocket at the back?
Image


stormur
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:50 pm
Location: FIN

by stormur

you should move FD cage inward enough to get few( 2 at min ) mm inbetween cage and chain ( chain on small front ring and largerst sprocket ). That's a "norm".

Obviosuly on DS crank is to close to frame if you can't. Compatibility issue.

I assume you have weavy washer on drive side...

Explain why you can't add any spacer on DS ?
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)

User avatar
ave
Posts: 1744
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:15 pm
Location: Hungary

by ave

There are no spacers, at all. If I add the wavy washer on the non drive side, which is sometimes required, the crank "binds", does not rotate freely. Without any washers it's spot on, no side to side play, and spins freely.
This crankset is secured by one bolt only, there's no adjustment possibility at all, like on a Dura Ace crank.

THe bolt is like on this one. https://ssli.ebayimg.com/images/g/-dcAA ... -l1600.jpg

Multebear
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm

by Multebear

I just installed 9100 on my 2014 SS hi-mod Dale. Did a lot af adjusting without any luck my self. Finally took it to the best bike mechanic in town. But no matter how long he tried to adjust the FD, he couldn't remove the rub against the FD in at least one position. Either there was rub in the lowest or highest gear combination, or in one of the two cross chain positions. I decided to let it rub when in the big chainring and the biggest rear sprocket and be done with it. It's an amazing groupset besides this. And I guess 11-speed isn't made for mechanic groupset. When I ran 10 speed Dura Ace mechanic, there was no problem.

RussellS
Posts: 783
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:31 am

by RussellS

My question is: Is the inner side of the front DERAILLEUR actually touching the seattube? Can the front derailleur even go in more? Or is the front derailleur touching the bottom bracket / seattube and is prevented from going in anymore?

If the answers to the above are YES, then you either need to somehow space the driveside rings outwards more, or get a new crankset that has the chainrings out further. The crank you have does not work with the frame you have.
Last edited by RussellS on Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ongbenghui
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:16 am

by ongbenghui

I find that the ultegra r8000 has the same problem. On my Giant TCR Adv Disc, on a full r8000 disc setup, the compromise is similar. I guess fortunately, there is a small plastic section on the FD that even if it rub, it is not noisy.
Multebear wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:42 am
I just installed 9100 on my 2014 SS hi-mod Dale. Did a lot af adjusting without any luck my self. Finally took it to the best bike mechanic in town. But no matter how long he tried to adjust the FD, he couldn't remove the rub against the FD in at least one position. Either there was rub in the lowest or highest gear combination, or in one of the two cross chain positions. I decided to let it rub when in the big chainring and the biggest rear sprocket and be done with it. It's an amazing groupset besides this. And I guess 11-speed isn't made for mechanic groupset. When I ran 10 speed Dura Ace mechanic, there was no problem.

alcatraz
Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Are you absolutely sure the cable is slack when you unscrew the low limit screw all the way?

This crank should have some side to side play after being installed (apart from preload adjusted cranks and certain kinds like gxp). A wavy washer is usually used to take up the play.

Is it possible the bb cups weren't pressed in fully or came with some kind of caps/spacers that weren't taken off before installing the crank?

If your fd is fine then you definitely need a spacer on the right side.

/a

TurboKoo
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:55 pm

by TurboKoo

Are you sure that you know how to adjust the new toggle design FD? If you don’t follow the instructions it’s impossible to get it working properly. It’s different process how to adjust.
Scott Foil
Shimano 9150
Shimano FCR-9100-P
Shimano C60 tubulars

stormur
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:50 pm
Location: FIN

by stormur

Ok, so your crank is to close to frame. Only solution is to add spacer on drive side . It may be impossible ( to short spindle on NDS )- then only solution is ... changing cranks.
BB right ( same as BB386evo ) are known from causing issues when paired with some power meter cranks...

There's only 2 more possibilities ;1. FD may stop not on the low limit, but on braze tab: had this issue once ( 53-39 crank on "compact" frame - cage hitting braze is a limiter). 2nd is that lower spring tension tab ( back of derailleur ) is hitting frame ( seat tube is your "low limiter" ) - look from behind and on ds - does any part of FD touching seat tube ?
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)

hambini
Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:13 am

by hambini

That looks like the chain line is wrong. If you install a shimano crank, I don't think you will have that problem.

I've got an S5 and when I ran rotor cranks, I had a similar issue. I had to fiddle with the bottom bracket spacing with spacers as others have said to fix it.

Not straightforward and made more difficult by having a BBright bottom bracket - so there is little wiggle room on the NDS.

User avatar
ms6073
Posts: 2538
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:24 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

by ms6073

hambini wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:30 am
That looks like the chain line is wrong.
Agree about chainline. There should not be that much of an angle in the chaing from the small chainring to the largest rear cog.
Michael - The Anaerobic Threshold is neither...

srshaw
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:06 pm

by srshaw

I had to add spacers to my caad 12 on the drive side to use my 105 crank. I also couldn't get the front mech parallel to the chain so had to give it a bit of a dremel.

If you are using a 24mm crank I'm sure there will be space to add spacers to the drive side.

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 337
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

Lots of potential solutions already mentioned, so I'll add another:

The new 9100 FD has a housing stop. Might this be touching the frame, maybe causing the tail to angle out?

If so, and since you don't need the function of the housing stop (no housing there), then I'd consider grinding off the housing stop from the FD body. Then follow the service instructions to carefully set the FD angle and readjust.
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

User avatar
ave
Posts: 1744
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:15 pm
Location: Hungary

by ave

Thanks for the input, guys!

Here are my answers to the questions I know:
"My question is: Is the inner side of the front chainring actually touching the seattube? "
Not at all, not even close. Quite a big gap between the chainstay and the inner ring too.

"Can the front derailleur even go in more?"
Well, I can tilt its back towards the frame, yes. (the mounting support screw straightened it out) If the "braze-on" type mounting would allow, the whole derailleur could go closer to the frame, 5mm at least, I think.
Actually I was thinking that's one option: to get a new "braze-on" mount made, which moves the whole derailleur towards the frame. Or have this one machined somehow.

"Are you absolutely sure the cable is slack when you unscrew the low limit screw all the way?"
Yes, it's clearly visible, and can be felt too.

"This crank should have some side to side play after being installed"
Yes, I know. I move the crankset between two (now three) frames quite often, so I think it's a bit worn maybe. (Actually I'm having binding bearings problems with the BSA frame) But the wear can only be at the ND side, so I'm pretty sure the drive side is as it should be. I could try to buy a new spindle I guess, but probably better to sell the whole crankset and buy a Rotor one. (If that is a any better in this case?)

"Is it possible the bb cups weren't pressed in fully or came with some kind of caps/spacers"
Both of this would result in chainrings further out from the frame, and hence no rubbing. But I was there when the cups were installed, they were done correctly, there are no gaps at all.

"Are you sure that you know how to adjust the new toggle design FD? "
Pretty sure. Read through the Dealers Manual multiple times, and checked a few youtube videos.

"1. FD may stop not on the low limit, but on braze tab: had this issue once ( 53-39 crank on "compact" frame - cage hitting braze is a limiter). 2nd is that lower spring tension tab ( back of derailleur ) is hitting frame ( seat tube is your "low limiter" ) - look from behind and on ds - does any part of FD touching seat tube ?"
Good idea, will check tomorrow!

"There should not be that much of an angle in the chaing from the small chainring to the largest rear cog."
But it seems that what I want is more angle*! Moving the chainrings outwards would help clear the FD cage, but the chainline would be even less straight in the pictured combination. (*: Unless I can get the derailleur cage to move towards the frame somehow.)

" The new 9100 FD has a housing stop. Might this be touching the frame, maybe causing the tail to angle out? "
Good idea, will check this one too tomorrow!


User avatar
ave
Posts: 1744
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:15 pm
Location: Hungary

by ave

Image

Derailleur not touching the frame. The closest part, the cable stop is 2.4mm from the frame. I would need maybe 1mm, possibly even less. Can anybody with an S5 frame and FD-R9100 measure this distance, please?

Also checked maybe the cable is pinched below the moving arms, but no. Even if I pulled out the loop, and let the end flap around the cage does not move closer to the frame.

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post