Campagnolo 12-Speed

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
2lo8
Posts: 475
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:32 am

by 2lo8

AJS914 wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 7:43 pm
There's been no news on Chorus other than it will remain as 11 speed for the time being. One could imagine Campy eventually making Chorus and Potenza 12 speed as they have always done in the past.
Check the weight difference between SR and R 12. I think it's about the same as the difference between the current SR and Chorus. Chorus has historically been released at the same time as Record for the history of ergopower, and not trickle down, just more affordable, and usually advertised as having the same quality and function as Record, just heavier and more affordable.

1992 - Ergopower introduced, Chorus group officially uses Record ergopowers (same part listed as part of the Chrous group), Chorus gets its own version in 1994/5.
1997 - Record and Chorus 9 speed introduced
1998 - Record and Chorus get new hood shape
2000 - Record an Chorus go 10 speed
2007 - Record and Chorus get QS shifting
2009 - Super Record, Record, Chorus 11 introduced
2015 - Super Record, Record, Chorus go revolution

Chorus and Record have historically always been joined at the hip for the entire ergo era. The only thing that has been trickled down over time is materials and cosmetics as those got small updates for both Record and Chorus. Chorus was never time delayed trickle down a year later like Ultegra. It was just a more affordable version of Record always being released at the same time. Chorus not being released with Record is new and nothing like what they've done in the past.
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joe1234
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:29 pm

by joe1234

2lo8 wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 1:05 pm
1992 - Ergopower introduced, Chorus group officially uses Record ergopowers (same part listed as part of the Chrous group), Chorus gets its own version in 1994/5.
1997 - Record and Chorus 9 speed introduced
1998 - Record and Chorus get new hood shape
2000 - Record an Chorus go 10 speed
2007 - Record and Chorus get QS shifting
2009 - Super Record, Record, Chorus 11 introduced
2015 - Super Record, Record, Chorus go revolution
2013- Super Record 80th anniversary!!! Only 4 000 gruppos will release!!! 15 000 in 1983 for the 50th anniversary...

mag
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Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:23 pm

by mag

I wouldn't write Chorus off (yet) for 2 simple reasons:

- weight: both 12s Record/SR grouppos are heavier than their 11s counterparts, thus the fact that the 12s Record weight is very close to the 11s Chorus doesn't mean much - 12s Chorus would be even heavier (and Potenza even more)

- price: both those new 12s grouppos are even more expensive (than 11s), resulting in even bigger price gap between them and the lower grade ones, if we'd take Chorus away that gap would be really huge

I believe that they as a smaller company had to work within certain R&D constraints and simply weren't able to release all their grouppos in 12s versions at once.

2lo8
Posts: 475
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:32 am

by 2lo8

mag wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 3:39 pm
I wouldn't write Chorus off (yet) for 2 simple reasons:

- weight: both 12s Record/SR grouppos are heavier than their 11s counterparts, thus the fact that the 12s Record weight is very close to the 11s Chorus doesn't mean much - 12s Chorus would be even heavier (and Potenza even more)

- price: both those new 12s grouppos are even more expensive (than 11s), resulting in even bigger price gap between them and the lower grade ones, if we'd take Chorus away that gap would be really huge

I believe that they as a smaller company had to work within certain R&D constraints and simply weren't able to release all their grouppos in 12s versions at once.
Chorus has pretty much always shared most of the parts with Record. There's nothing to Chorus specific R&D except steel fasteners and brake levers without holes. I don't think you're looking at the weights correctly. The weight difference between SR12 and R12 is about the same as the difference between SR11 and C11. It's SR12 that's close to C11 weight, not R12. Consider also that SR12 has 3 hole brake levers, R12 has 0 hole brake levers like C11. If they planned on continuing the old tiers, they would have given SR12 3 holes, R12 2 holes and C12 no holes.

1,940 SR11
2,039 R11 (+99g)
2,120 C11 (+180g)

2,041 SR12
2,213 R12 (+172g)

And consider 1/3 of the weight differences are because of the cassette on 11. This is not the first time Campy has decided people weren't buying enough top end groupsets and neutered midrange and low end ones. I'm pretty sure they considered Record the redundant group, but figred it would be better to ditch the Chorus name than the Record name. That or Campy is now doing time delayed trickle down for Chorus, which is has never done before.
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Daniel1975
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by Daniel1975

I don’t know what they are thinking, but they’re losing customers. I’ve been riding campy for >25years, but my next groupset will be DuraAce Di2. And I know more people that think like this.
Unnessecary 12sp, more weight, more sensitive for setup, more money. What are they thinking....?

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Miller
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by Miller

Unnecessary 12sp... just watch the other manufacturers follow suit. It's already happening for the off-road groups.

ParisCarbon
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Location: Winnipeg Canada

by ParisCarbon

I think this just forced the others to follow... Ive never used EPS, I used Mechanical Record/SR for 27 years before I tried Shimano and it was a direct jump to Di2...
The one thing through the years of updates with Campy is..its always the same freehub.. never had to worry... My greatest fear with Shimano is they will redesign something in the backend and none of my Roval wheels will work (easy swap to a DT Swiss Campy and run 12s though) Wireless or a rendition would be "nice" but is it really gonna be a deal breaker... Brand new SL6 frame sitting in the basement Im itching to build... and Ive literally slammed the brakes on waiting to see what Shimano counters with and what EPS 12 brings to the table...

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

Daniel1975 wrote:I don’t know what they are thinking, but they’re losing customers. I’ve been riding campy for >25years, but my next groupset will be DuraAce Di2. And I know more people that think like this.
Unnessecary 12sp, more weight, more sensitive for setup, more money. What are they thinking....?
Odd. We’re selling more Campagnolo than ever.


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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I also sell more campag than I do Shimano but then again there no money in Shimano for the retailer so I don't even try.

Daniel1975
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Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:46 pm

by Daniel1975

ultimobici wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:52 pm
Daniel1975 wrote:I don’t know what they are thinking, but they’re losing customers. I’ve been riding campy for >25years, but my next groupset will be DuraAce Di2. And I know more people that think like this.
Unnessecary 12sp, more weight, more sensitive for setup, more money. What are they thinking....?
Odd. We’re selling more Campagnolo than ever.


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And marketshare?
Selling more is easy if the total market grows.....

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TonyM
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by TonyM

ultimobici wrote: Odd. We’re selling more Campagnolo than ever.


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In which country are located?

mag
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:23 pm

by mag

Speaking of the unnecessary 12-speed: Shimano have just unveiled 12-speed XTR M9100 MTB groupset. Surely road grouppos will follow.
2lo8 wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 4:17 pm
Chorus has pretty much always shared most of the parts with Record. There's nothing to Chorus specific R&D except steel fasteners and brake levers without holes. I don't think you're looking at the weights correctly. The weight difference between SR12 and R12 is about the same as the difference between SR11 and C11. It's SR12 that's close to C11 weight, not R12. Consider also that SR12 has 3 hole brake levers, R12 has 0 hole brake levers like C11. If they planned on continuing the old tiers, they would have given SR12 3 holes, R12 2 holes and C12 no holes.

1,940 SR11
2,039 R11 (+99g)
2,120 C11 (+180g)

2,041 SR12
2,213 R12 (+172g)

And consider 1/3 of the weight differences are because of the cassette on 11. This is not the first time Campy has decided people weren't buying enough top end groupsets and neutered midrange and low end ones. I'm pretty sure they considered Record the redundant group, but figred it would be better to ditch the Chorus name than the Record name. That or Campy is now doing time delayed trickle down for Chorus, which is has never done before.
You're right that the 12s Record i now even heavier than 11s Chorus. I took it simply as 12s SR gets into the 11s Record weight territory, 12s Record now compares to 11s Chorus etc. But yes, it isn't very accurate comparison, that's right.
And you're right there aren't many significant design differences between both Record and Chorus, but still they need to test and verify any alterations to the design and materials used and make sure the mass production doesn't bring up another issues. And they could have been short on resources and time here as they wanted to release it already. Or they may follow the way of their EPS groupsets where Chorus is more different than Record and SR.

I still think they have too many product lines. They could do something like keep Record and SR and sort of merge Chorus and Potenza into single line - if they're able to spread the pricing and weights decently (right now I'd say the new Record is too expensive for Chorus to disappear).

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zank
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by zank

I agree with too many lines and redundancies. Things like holes in a brake lever or in a rear derailleur plate to differentiate one group from another seem so silly. I wonder what each group and each wheel contributes to their bottom line as a percentage of the whole. Trim the fat. Focus on what they do best. I think SR12, R12, and Potenza11, each in mech and EPS would make a lot of sense. Fewer SKUs. Better focus. Trim the aluminum wheel line (leave shamal, zonda, scirocco maybe?). But maybe I'm way off and they net a lot of Euros from the lower end stuff. That's the thing with Campagnolo. We can only speculate on the financials. Maybe they are at capacity and making bank on everything. Maybe that's why OE sales haven't been a major focus over the past years. I don't see why a small company would want to chase lower margin OE sales anyway unless they are trying to keep machines busy.

Yikes. I'll stop rambling.

robertbb
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

Merging Chorus and Potenza into a third 12s gruppo, in alloy, makes sense. As does leaving Chorus as the "flagship" 11 speed carbon UltraShift gruppo, with Potenza as the alloy equivalent (the HO Potenza crank is now available as UltraTorque). I sure hope it's the latter, because I'm invested in Campy. I have 3x wheelsets (Bora, Shamal C17, Zonda C17) 4x mechanical 11s gruppos (3x Chorus, 1x Record). Not a fan of the aesthetic of the new groups, or of electronic groupsets in general. Nor do I have any need or desire to go 12sp (or disc).
It's ALL about the bike.

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zank
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by zank

Doing away with Powershift like they have with Powertorque would be nice.

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