Campagnolo 12-Speed

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
morrisond
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

joe1234 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:11 pm
morrisond wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:27 am
Yes you are right - Record is 170 grams heavier than DA and SR is 172 lighter than Record so 2 grams lighter than Dura Ace.

The best idea then is Dura Ace with Ceramic Speed Pulleys and BB - for less than Record!

Or just keep my lightweight SR 11sp group and call it a day....
I just keep my lightweight Record 10S group (with full titanium cassette)....Lighter than Super Record 11S group... :wink: :beerchug:
It would be neat to see a comparison of the Generations in terms of weight if someone was inclined.


c60rider
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

morrisond wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:55 pm
joe1234 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:11 pm
morrisond wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:27 am
Yes you are right - Record is 170 grams heavier than DA and SR is 172 lighter than Record so 2 grams lighter than Dura Ace.

The best idea then is Dura Ace with Ceramic Speed Pulleys and BB - for less than Record!

Or just keep my lightweight SR 11sp group and call it a day....
I just keep my lightweight Record 10S group (with full titanium cassette)....Lighter than Super Record 11S group... :wink: :beerchug:
It would be neat to see a comparison of the Generations in terms of weight if someone was inclined.
But this is weight weenies you mean no one has done that already? :noidea: :roll: :lol:

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dgasmd
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Location: South Florida

by dgasmd

Zakalwe wrote:Seat tube battery/junction box with a wire to each mech, wireless shifters would be a pretty sweet solution. No big ugly mechs, simple installation
I’ve been saying that, literally, since the V1 eps came out. Frankly, I’m surprised that was not what came out as V2!!

campagowlo
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:05 pm

by campagowlo

I just keep my lightweight Record 10S group

Totally agree. I'm using Record 10 speed shifter, seqlite cassette, pyc 11 sp chain, super record rs fd, campagnolo overtorque chainset and ciamillo brakes. Way lighter and shifts well. I would prefer am 11-32 cassette and move to 11sp on full but no one apart from Sram seems to make a light 11 speed 11-32 cassette?

wingguy
Posts: 3745
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

dgasmd wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:04 pm
Zakalwe wrote:Seat tube battery/junction box with a wire to each mech, wireless shifters would be a pretty sweet solution. No big ugly mechs, simple installation
I’ve been saying that, literally, since the V1 eps came out. Frankly, I’m surprised that was not what came out as V2!!
Surely just as SRAM have patents on full wireless, Tiso would have secured patents on half wireless that (I assume) FSA have bought or licenced for WE.

Would Campag, Shimano or anyone else be able to market a similar system without infriging?

g00se
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:22 pm

by g00se

wingguy wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:43 pm
dgasmd wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:04 pm
Zakalwe wrote:Seat tube battery/junction box with a wire to each mech, wireless shifters would be a pretty sweet solution. No big ugly mechs, simple installation
I’ve been saying that, literally, since the V1 eps came out. Frankly, I’m surprised that was not what came out as V2!!
Surely just as SRAM have patents on full wireless, Tiso would have secured patents on half wireless that (I assume) FSA have bought or licenced for WE.

Would Campag, Shimano or anyone else be able to market a similar system without infriging?
Here's a Campag patent that mentions prior art for battery positioning on electronic groupsets (central wired or mounted on mechs) and a way around it:
In some known electronic gearshifts there is a central battery power supply unit, shared by all of the components of the gearshift 1110, and typically arranged in a fairly central position on the frame of the bicycle 1100.

In other electronic gearshifts, there is a battery power supply unit dedicated to the front derailleur (as well as one or more other battery power supply unit(s) dedicated to the other components of the gearshift). In such cases, the battery power supply unit is typically supported on the frame of the bicycle 1100 close to the support body 1118 of the front derailleur 1111, or on the support body 1118 itself of the front derailleur 1111....

The Applicant, solving the technical problem of providing a bicycle electric front derailleur that has an alternative configuration, has now overcome these prejudices of the prior art.
For the front mech, the battery is on the back of the cage:

http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20180104 ... 001960.php

Image

I can't find anything about the rear mech though

avispa
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:36 am

by avispa

Zakalwe wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:25 am
Dodger747 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:25 am
neeb wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:58 pm

It’ll probably need to be rejoined in the heart of a neutron star using a special pin forged from one of the dwarfish rings of power.
:lol: :lol:

As a long-time Campag user, isn't that the truth! Luckily there's KMC!
I don’t understand the chain complaints, sure the official Campagnolo chain tool is expensive but there’s much cheaper alternatives that do the job perfectly well. You need a chain tool to break the chain to the correct length anyway, so what’s the problem with connecting with the same £15 tool?
Agree about the complains... I just think they are more people talking than a real complain.
NOTE: Take a look at the thread about Shimano crankset failure... Now that's a bitch! :lol:
I've used Potenza level Campy chains for a while without any issues and saving a bundle. I tried KMC a few years ago, trying to "save" and all I got was aggravation and terrible shifting. So, aside from PowerMeters, I am 100% Campy!

c60rider
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

I was lucky enough to go to Bespoked (http://www.bespoked.cc/) 2018 today and for anyone really interested you could also look on https://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/ ... ery-52155/ though the pictures chosen barely give an impression of what's on display or see GCN's video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwgaMAn3Ouw

There was all sorts there including Chris King himself but most interestingly for me Campagnolo had a display and yes 12 Speed was there! And as normal, regular contributor and font of knowledge on all things Campagnolo Graeme_F_K was on hand to fend off my questions! Or rather give some really thorough answers to hopefully all the questions that have been raised on here since 12 Speed was announced. So here we go! :smartass:

Apologies in advance for some of the slightly blurred pictures.

Let's get straight onto the first thing which is those limited cassette ranges of 11-29 and 11-32. This was specifically at the request of the pros. There is no reason why any other combination of cassette can't be produced, seeing as the larger sized 2 pairs of 3 sprockets are just machined from one piece, however it's a simple case of economics. Supply and demand. There is such little demand for 11 or 12 to 25 that it's not worth producing. However they may produce an 11-27, that is being considered, though that would be later this year, perhaps when electronic is released? Wait and see. Graeme went into far more detail than that on it though I'm not tech-minded enough to be able to repeat it all on here though for me personally I would look at all my current front chainring/sprocket combos, match it up next to the new ones then work out what would give me the best option with the new set up.

Sticking with the cassette there was talk about the cassette being domed and pushing in towards the spokes a bit more. This absolutely isn't the case and hopefully the pictures below show that. The only thing that extends beyond where the existing 11 speed cassettes currently sit are those little ledges to presumably help stop the chain being wedged in between the spokes and largest sprocket. Otherwise they are completely flat.

Image

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Moving onto the chain. We have a win here in that our 11 speed chain tools (UT-CN300) will work with 12 speed chains :beerchug:

Just some pictures of the rear mech. I was undecided myself when first viewing it on pictures but have to say in person it's a totally different matter it looks really good. The pictures don't really do it justice at all but it's not going to be changing so get used to it.

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Next contentious (for some not me I really liked the look of it) issue was the chainset but again in person it really looks fantastic. It reminds me of the original C-record chainset which was beautifully curvy and sculptured. However the main questions for Graeme on this were the chainrings. They are not compatible with existing cranks and this means P2M and SRM power meters. They will need to redesign them to get them to fit. However there could be a workaround to enable them to fit but this is obviously something that will need to be directed to SRM and P2M. At present Campagnolo have no plans to release an integrated power meter. Graeme said Campagnolo have a really good relationship with both P2M and SRM who they supply cranks to and they produce perfectly good power meters for those that require them and they have no plans to destroy that relationship by making their own.

Image

The bike they had set up was a disc-equipped bike though I was more interested in the brake calipers. They will work with existing 11 speed kit for those that need a brake with more clearance. As for the cables the new Maximum Smoothness cables are backwards compatible with 11 speed but you cannot use existing cables with 12 speed.

Not sure there was much else I have a couple of pictures of the front mech and Graeme did say that 1xdrivetrain is being driven by the industry and not consumers as having a front mech puts constraints on frame design. So you 1x fans saying we don't need 2x please shut up. 2x fans don't accept that you have to have 1x and that's it! We can have whatever we want if there's a demand for it.

Image

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Prior to seeing it all in the flesh I had thought it probably won't be something I'll rush to buy. I still won't at the moment as I don't need a new bike just yet but I am thinking of getting my first ever true dedicated winter bike and feel pretty sure I'll move all my super record 11 speed kit off my C60 onto that, buy the new calipers with greater clearance to be able to run 25mm tyres and mudguards, then put 12 speed on the C60. So I wouldn't be buying 12 speed at the earliest until beginning of 2019 (aside from the calipers). It will give time for them to confirm if an 11-27 cassette is available and for the power meter options to be released from P2M and SRM.

Hope this was of help :beerchug:

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dgasmd
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Location: South Florida

by dgasmd

Like I said from the day it was released, this seems like a great choice for a "strickly climbing bike with a compact". Leave the 11SP for flat lands and standard crank. Even better if there is a wireless EPS coming out for either one or both. Then, the mechanical 11 sp goes to the back up bike! Or both, climbing and flat ride bikes get EPS!!!!!
Last edited by dgasmd on Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Zakalwe
Posts: 432
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:15 pm

by Zakalwe

Cheers!

ginofausto
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:24 pm

by ginofausto

Thank You C60rider for the detailled report!

Did they speak about the range of the new rear derailleur design? Is f.e. a 12-34 cassette possible?

...I'm also courious about the new EPS;-)

c60rider
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

dgasmd wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:36 pm
Like I said from the day it was released, this seems like a great choice for a "strickly climbing bike with a compact". Leave the 11SP for flat lands and standard crank. Even better if there is a wireless EPS coming out for either one or both. Then, the mechanical 11 sp goes to the back up bike! Or both, climbing and flat ride bikes get EPS!!!!!
That patent that someone put out on a previous post suggests that a wireless will be next if the front mech design is anything to go by.

c60rider
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

ginofausto wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:54 pm
Thank You C60rider for the detailled report!

Did they speak about the range of the new rear derailleur design? Is f.e. a 12-34 cassette possible?

...I'm also courious about the new EPS;-)
Didn't ask that one about the range as all the complaints and my personal choice would have been for a smaller cassette. 11-32 and 50/34 is small enough? I doubt there's much to be gained from a 34. Or just do a 52 and stick a 34 on if the front mech will accept it. Someone else would have to answer that though.

I think new electric is towards the end of the year from what I read somewhere.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@c60rider: thanks for that. I had some questions but i forgot to send them to you beforehand. Oh well, it’s not like I’m getting it tomorrow. The front mech looks all business. I like it. Did you notice if it still required the inline adjuster. I can set it up just fine without bu was wondering if they incorporated that into the front derailleur like Shimano did with 9100. Good to hear about the brakes. But if you want to do a dedicated rain bike with 25’s and full fenders, you’ll still have to pay pretty close attention to the frame you select.
Still wanting for more info on front chainring compatibility. The holes must be the same configuration if there’s even murmurs of a possible “workaround”. I suspect it may be just a slight spacing issue but I’ll just have to wait and see. Glad they’re keeping the relationship with P2M and SRM. No complaints there. Whether P2M and/or SRM feel playing in the Campy pool is worth it to them is a separate issue I suppose. As for the pages of cassette talk... I just didn’t get it. An 11/27 might be nice ultimate racers choice, but the gaps are totally fine with so many cogs. The 11/27 would likely give the 18 tooth and beyond 19, then 2 or 3 tooth gaps are on a percentage change basis just fine. See @ooo’s chart he posted way back in this thread somewhere. All in all I think this group is going to be a big hit.
Oh, did Graeme mention anything more about the new cables... like are they coated like Shimano’s, thinner like SRAM’s, etc. I kind of like the uncoated stainless steel strands of cables over the coated stuff. Can’t wait to set one up for real. I have someone in the queue with a new build waiting to happen and I told him that anything but Campy 12sp is unacceptable at this point, and if he wants me to build it, then 11sp is not an option given that the 12sp is so close. :).
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2lo8
Posts: 368
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:32 am

by 2lo8

Calnago wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:17 pm
The front mech looks all business. I like it. Did you notice if it still required the inline adjuster. I can set it up just fine without bu was wondering if they incorporated that into the front derailleur like Shimano did with 9100.
That would explain the 2-part arm design. I can't think of any other reason for it.
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