Campagnolo 12-Speed

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
jih
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:54 pm

by jih

Hmmm... if clinchers in mountains are suicidal then I guess 100% of my club are suicidal. Strange that.

Plenty of pro racers on 11-28 (or 11-27 or 11-29) cassettes too.

morrisond
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

Just thinking about the crazy price Differential between Record Rim and Super Record Rim - Over $1,000 USD to save 172 grams.

To put that in context that's the same as leaving 172 ml's out of a bottle of water. Just fill one of your bottle's to 80% and your bike will be the same weight as the SR one next to you (assuming all other parts are the same).

While SR Spider may be stiffer I would have to guess Record Steel Crank axle is stiffer and Alloy FD and RD cages should be stiffer as well. Functionally Record may be better than SR and save $1,000!

I guess that Super Duper Smooth SR bearings are worth the difference.

Or get Record without the brakes - get the new EE's and Ceramicspeed Bearings for the RD and BB for probably the same price and weight and have even Super Duperer smooth rolling bearings!

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alexneumuller
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 10:45 am
Location: Munich, Germany

by alexneumuller

Don't agree with that, although I m on the healthy fit side, but still carry 94kilos. And have ordered a C64 with the Super Record 12-Speed, and getting Bora Ultra 50 Clinchers wheels, and I m super happy with those wheels on a rolling terrain, and for mountains I change to a set of DTSwiss 1400 Clinchers. And find Clinchers absoutley fine for mountains or rolling terrain, and never had an accident. But must admit that 11-25 would be pushing it, as some grades are 12%+ and I prefer having a 11-28 or Campy 11-29. as I don't feel like grinding my way up.


Priit wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:11 pm
This new Campy 12-speed gruppo and especially new wide Bora wheels are designed purely for mamils (read heavy, overweight easy training persons) in mind. Only totally suicidal and ignorant towards other fellow cyclists person will go to mountain or even flattish races with clinchers. Twelve speeds - meh, why not - bikes are nowadays so light anyway that few more grams dosen't matter. Personally I think that in 99% of routes and climbes one can ride in Europe, 11-25 11-speed cassette and compact crankset is totally enough for ordinary average non-competing cyclist.
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neeb
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Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm

by neeb

morrisond wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:47 pm
Just thinking about the crazy price Differential between Record Rim and Super Record Rim - Over $1,000 USD to save 172 grams.

To put that in context that's the same as leaving 172 ml's out of a bottle of water. Just fill one of your bottle's to 80% and your bike will be the same weight as the SR one next to you (assuming all other parts are the same).

While SR Spider may be stiffer I would have to guess Record Steel Crank axle is stiffer and Alloy FD and RD cages should be stiffer as well. Functionally Record may be better than SR and save $1,000!

I guess that Super Duper Smooth SR bearings are worth the difference.

Or get Record without the brakes - get the new EE's and Ceramicspeed Bearings for the RD and BB for probably the same price and weight and have even Super Duperer smooth rolling bearings!
I worry that Campagnolo may be shooting themselves in the foot with this.. It's pretty clear that all you are really paying for with SR over Record is weight. That's true for the top tiers from all of the brands. But the new 12 speed has a rather poor price/weight score compared to the much cheaper options from the other manufacturers. Why would you pay £1750 for Record when you can get Dura Ace 9100 for £1050, and the latter is actually lighter as well as being known for top-notch performance? OK, SR is a little lighter again than DA, but it is insanely more expensive!

morrisond
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

Yes you are right - Record is 170 grams heavier than DA and SR is 172 lighter than Record so 2 grams lighter than Dura Ace.

The best idea then is Dura Ace with Ceramic Speed Pulleys and BB - for less than Record!

Or just keep my lightweight SR 11sp group and call it a day....

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tommasini
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Location: Central USA
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by tommasini

I'll be buying slowly.........seeing how prices level off once the intial high introductory price goes by the wayside......watching the exchange rates....and at first buying one current model 11-29 steel cassette. After that I'll be waiting with the hope that other cog ranges (12-29 or 12-27 come to my mind) and in a Super Record version comes about (guessing maybe about 60 grams savings?)

morrisond
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

The cassette is Super Record already....

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tommasini
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by tommasini

Bike Rumor and several other sources said this / similar.....just a data point to consider.

"The heart of Campagnolo’s move to 12 speeds are the two new Record-level cassettes (11-29 & 11-32) that keep gear ratios close, while providing a broader gear range".

https://www.bikerumor.com/2018/04/09/ca ... groupsets/

Priit
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:22 am

by Priit

AJS914 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:56 pm
Only totally suicidal and ignorant towards other fellow cyclists person will go to mountain or even flattish races with clinchers.
That doesn't make sense. Why would someone be suicidal to use clinchers?

I thought the new wheels were time trial wheels and meant to be used tubeless because Campy thinks that results in the fastest wheel.
Clinchers are technically superior (lower rr, more aero) for time trials and that's fine and where they should be used.

But after one has experienced and/or seen how clincher inner tube explodes and in a fraction of second fully unseats clincher tyre from the rim (e.g. especially "nice" scenario will be on the descent at 80 km/h or riding in a group) you probably change your views about clinchers and tubulars. This kind of bad luck dosen't have to happen to most people never ever in their life, but I've experienced it myself once and seen/heard quite a few times happening to somebody else in the races - and I don't race a big number of races at all :) Maybe it's a local stuff as we have a lot of chip seal roads here.

Anyway, I use clinchers too - in training rides, but now with heavier rubber.

XCProMD
Posts: 550
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

Priit wrote:This new Campy 12-speed gruppo and especially new wide Bora wheels are designed purely for mamils (read heavy, overweight easy training persons) in mind. Only totally suicidal and ignorant towards other fellow cyclists person will go to mountain or even flattish races with clinchers. Twelve speeds - meh, why not - bikes are nowadays so light anyway that few more grams dosen't matter. Personally I think that in 99% of routes and climbes one can ride in Europe, 11-25 11-speed cassette and compact crankset is totally enough for ordinary average non-competing cyclist.
Now I know: I’m a suicidal and ingnorant towards other fellow cyclists mamil. Thanks

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Last edited by XCProMD on Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kjetil
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by Kjetil

Hey Priit. They are for tubeless. Your argument fell flat a while ago. I’m just taking a road leveler to it.
Bianchi-Campagnolo

rajMAN
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:20 pm
Location: UK

by rajMAN

Here's me hoping Campagnolo would start a Christmas Club so I can put a little away each week! Ah well I'l just keep pushing my nose against their window. :(

morrisond
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

Priit wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:33 am
AJS914 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:56 pm
Only totally suicidal and ignorant towards other fellow cyclists person will go to mountain or even flattish races with clinchers.
That doesn't make sense. Why would someone be suicidal to use clinchers?

I thought the new wheels were time trial wheels and meant to be used tubeless because Campy thinks that results in the fastest wheel.
Clinchers are technically superior (lower rr, more aero) for time trials and that's fine and where they should be used.

But after one has experienced and/or seen how clincher inner tube explodes and in a fraction of second fully unseats clincher tyre from the rim (e.g. especially "nice" scenario will be on the descent at 80 km/h or riding in a group) you probably change your views about clinchers and tubulars. This kind of bad luck dosen't have to happen to most people never ever in their life, but I've experienced it myself once and seen/heard quite a few times happening to somebody else in the races - and I don't race a big number of races at all :) Maybe it's a local stuff as we have a lot of chip seal roads here.

Anyway, I use clinchers too - in training rides, but now with heavier rubber.
That is probably why Campy is still making Bora 35mm Tubs - for the Mountains

joe1234
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:29 pm

by joe1234

morrisond wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:27 am
Yes you are right - Record is 170 grams heavier than DA and SR is 172 lighter than Record so 2 grams lighter than Dura Ace.

The best idea then is Dura Ace with Ceramic Speed Pulleys and BB - for less than Record!

Or just keep my lightweight SR 11sp group and call it a day....
I just keep my lightweight Record 10S group (with full titanium cassette)....Lighter than Super Record 11S group... :wink: :beerchug:

morrisond
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

tommasini wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:24 am
Bike Rumor and several other sources said this / similar.....just a data point to consider.

"The heart of Campagnolo’s move to 12 speeds are the two new Record-level cassettes (11-29 & 11-32) that keep gear ratios close, while providing a broader gear range".

https://www.bikerumor.com/2018/04/09/ca ... groupsets/
Bikeradar has it wrong - Campy is labelling the Cassettes as SR - https://www.campagnolo.com/CA/en/Compon ... ts_12speed

They call them the same thing under Record https://www.campagnolo.com/CA/en/Mechan ... ecord/road

The List price On-line is about the same as Current 11 Sr Cassettes as well.

Campy may in the future make it lighter - but I would hate to know what they will charge for it. It will be an $800 Cassette....

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