Campagnolo 12-Speed

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
XCProMD
Posts: 877
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

Most people in the States don’t get the Mittelstand (Germany) / PMI (Italy) concept.

That side of the pond you believe a company can only be healthy if it grows. Success is measured in terms of growth and little else. Tesla and Amazon are good examples, companies that hardly turn a profit but have become huge by burning money at rocket rate. I’m not criticising it, many shareholder have made a fortune on them, and so have their CEO’s.

But what if you company would be owned by a bunch of people. For example a family, but not necessarily. And when the opportunity comes to issue equity and become public you decide not to.

That is the idea of the German Mittelstand and the Italian PMI. And they work, even in very competitive environments populated by big corporations. They focus on very specific matters and become extremely good at it.

Take the lifting industry, for example. Some of the biggest crane companies are American, like Manitowoc or Terex. But then you have a family owned company like Liebherr. They do what Manitowoc and Terex do, only much better and in lower quantity. They refused to move some of the production to China in the late 90’s and early 2000. And they are healthier as a company than both Manitowoc and Terex ( that’s about to be taken over).

Go to Austria and Palfinger is the same story, cross the border and Fassi and Effer are just the same.

All of them can make products for the American market, this is with the silly rule of the 10% elongation from 1926. All it takes is downgrading some crane. Very often they choose not to.

But if your elsewhere in the world they will sell you one of those beauties made in 1100 MPa thermomecanically rolled steel and 1300 MPa QT plate. Try to get that from the big behemoths.

Please don’t worry for Campagnolo’s future. They do it themselves, thanks. And they’re doing fine and have very interesting stuff in the pipe. Then you may like it and they may want to sell it where you live. Or not. That’s part of being a PMI.

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ginofausto
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:24 pm

by ginofausto

XCProMD wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:46 pm
Most people in the States don’t get the Mittelstand (Germany) / PMI (Italy) concept.....
Hello,

Your post regarding “Mittelstand”-companies hits the core! I’m Austrian, so I understand what you mean (i.e Liebherr and Palfinger)! That was the reason to order Campagnolo stuff, because it’s produced in the EU and it’s a smaller company. I like that, because here in Austria usually we work in and live from these companies.

As you can read in my thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=150849, I’m in the process to buy a Colnago C64. In last July I ordered it with Campagnolo EPS (I would have ordered mechanical but my dealer made a very good offer on EPS). Once a year I go to the Dolomites with 18-20% steep slopes to “Refugios”. So I also wanted to have the 11-32 option with Super Record medium cage HO, which at this point is only available mechanical. Reading your posts I have the impression you work in the industry. Do you think EPS will get a reworked rear derailleur (like mechanical HO) for 11-32 this year? It would be nice to get your estimation.


TobinHatesYou
Posts: 6023
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Generational businesses can still get bought out. Family owners can still succumb to greed.

It is simply easier for companies with smaller market capitalization to be sold off. Campagnolo is definitely a potential acquisition target for a faceless international investor group that makes an offer the current owners can’t refuse.

XCProMD
Posts: 877
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

What a fantastic country you live in...

I can't disclose all I know nor do I know it all. Just wait a month and there will be some news.

By the way, I'm not criticising the American way of doing business, I'm just telling there are other ways. As you can see all my rants are written on iPhones. Some American companies do great product as some European make rubbish.


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dgasmd
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:10 am
Location: South Florida

by dgasmd

XCProMD wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:19 pm
I can't disclose all I know nor do I know it all. Just wait a month and there will be some news.

By the way, I'm not criticising the American way of doing business, I'm just telling there are other ways. As you can see all my rants are written on iPhones. Some American companies do great product as some European make rubbish.


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I have been hearing locally and in many parts of the US the same crap for decades about campagnolo, yet I have been a user for 2+ decades. Not swtching anytime soon!!

Just wishing they would come out with the damn wireless or semiwireless EPS already. It is a matter of time they all have their own version. I just want mine yesterday :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

avispa
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:36 am

by avispa

Calnago wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:41 am
Since we’re speculating, I’d agree with @Miller above. EPS could use a refresh. Since 2015, the geometry of their rear derailleur lags behind the mechanical version with its ability to wrap more of the cassette. Then Shimano, with their 9100 stuff took the “wrap” to such an extreme that it makes rear wheel removal rather difficult on some frames, but shifting is great. So, yes... an update to EPS would seem to be next in line. Although I’ve seen snippets of a new crank, which of course could apply to both EPS and Mechanical. Who knows.
Another vote to EPS refresh... I just have to wonder how much of this RD "wrap" would do for better shifting performance than te current EPS does. I hope they concentrate on elimination these four pin battery charger connectors and ways to hide the EPS interface.... Now, take a look at a SRAM eTap RD and you will see how babdly it sticks out. It reminds me of that ancient a Mavic Zap RD actually.

avispa
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:36 am

by avispa

XCProMD wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:46 pm
Most people in the States don’t get the Mittelstand (Germany) / PMI (Italy) concept.
Very well said, I just omitted the rest of the post for space sake. Anyway, everyone, read this article... There's a reason Campagnolo Rear Derailleurs have a heart! :D

https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/italian-job

avispa
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:36 am

by avispa

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:15 pm
Generational businesses can still get bought out. Family owners can still succumb to greed.

It is simply easier for companies with smaller market capitalization to be sold off. Campagnolo is definitely a potential acquisition target for a faceless international investor group that makes an offer the current owners can’t refuse.
Ouch! Let's just hope this group will not screw the company like they have done with many in the fashion industry... True Religion, Lucky Brand, etc are a couple of examples.

benzebub
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu May 07, 2015 1:24 pm

by benzebub

But I could be wrong

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 6023
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Interestingly, Campagnolo isn’t bothering to offer either of the new Bora wheels in a tubular version, saying that in-house testing showing that it was the slowest-rolling of the three common tire types. So instead, the Bora WTO 60 and Bora WTO 77 will only be offered in tubeless-compatible clinchers, with 19mm-wide internal widths optimized for 25-28c tires.
This is quite contentious and I agree! Tubeless tires have the least rolling resistance (>1.4W per tire when comparing the Corsa Speeds to each other.) They are also more aero with less of a pinch where the rims and tires meet. As we know, higher w/kg is always faster than lower w/kg even up the steepest grades, so if you climb at effectively 303W with with a +300g weight penalty, you are faster than if you climb at and effective 300W without that extra 300g.

e: It looks that Campy tested Pro One tires at 5W faster than tubulars, so the difference in speed is even more dramatic. Pro Ones aren’t even the fastest tubeless tires either... Basically you’d need to add around 1.5kg in weight to the tubeless set-up to make it as slow as a tubular set-up going up hills.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:38 am, edited 4 times in total.

MattN
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:01 pm

by MattN

Not feeling the new aesthetics, pics from CyclingTips
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ODC
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:40 am

by ODC

I'm totally not a fan of the new look and neither of 12 speed.
They better did a refresh of the EPS version with a new junction box that can be installed in the handlebar or like with a Pinarello F10 in the frame.

2lo8
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:32 am

by 2lo8

As much as I want (2x) 12 speed:

No Chorus. What's going to happen to Chorus? Year delay like Ultegra? Repositioned as 11 speed Ultrashift? Discontinued? Even buying Chorus is a stretch for me. The difference in weight between SR and Record is now closer to the difference in weight between older SR and Chorus (172g vs 180g).

Why was everything hit with the ugly stick? The derailer hanger was the last universal Campagnolo standard left. Now the rear looks even stranger trying to adapt to the Shimano hanger. Is it still dual sprung (sprung at the upper pivot), judging from the giant bulbous shape? This seems like an awful design choice when you only have 2 similar cassettes only 3t apart. I'm not really sure what is going on in the front, it appears the two parts are not eccentric, so there is no cam action going on. The large carbon cage is rather unsightly and bulky. How much does that arm bridge on SR help if it is not directly adhered to the chainring? Admittedly I like the lack of styling ridges on the record crank. The hydro hoods are inelegant to say the least, coming on the heels of Shimano's slimmed down R7000 hydro STI. The mechanical hoods inexplicably come to a sharp inward facing point. On the rim brakes, again with the round protrution, it looks even worse than just having the bolt go all the way through.

As far as weight, not impressive at all. The Record crank is only a few grams lighter than 105 or Rival OCT. I think R8000 is actually lighter than Record. Record is just Ultegra now, not DA. SR isn't Record+ anymore, it's DA. It looks like there's no room for Record- (Chorus) anymore.
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Shrike
Posts: 1835
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

Rarely surprised by anything much in cycling tech but Campag being first out with a road 12 speed?

Kudos 8)

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 6023
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Shrike wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:38 am
Rarely surprised by anything much in cycling tech but Campag being first out with a road 12 speed?

Kudos 8)

Reminder that Campagnolo was first to 11-speed...


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