Campagnolo 12-Speed

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I still don't get why the cassettes offered are a problem they are perfect for 1x12. Today I was riding my look in Yorkshire. Yorkshire has some testing climbs. 52t narrow wide chain ring and a 11-12-13-15-17-19-21-23-26-29-32t cassette with a 2015 record groupset. How come those gaps don't bother me. A extra cog would allow the 16t or perhaps 36t cog for really steep stuff. Given I can get up 20% gradients in 52-32t by squinting ( it makes the hill flatter) I'll take the 16t as I would use that more. The 15- 17t gap is not a problem though. I maybe a roadie but I have spent years riding single speed MTBs where steep hills are achieved by commitment and speed by spinning. A couple of years ago I did the south downs way which for those that don't know is a 100 mile trail in the south of England. Some road but alot of very steep off road climbs. I did it on a 61.5 inch gear (36t/17t with a 29*2.2" tyre) in 10.5 hrs. I was overtaking people one climbs wth very low gear ratios. I was the only rider on a single speed, I think it was a good choice. I think I stalled 8 times so this route is unfinished business. This is an good example why I don't care about how big the gaps are in a cassette.

There is an obession and it is an obession with minimising gaps in a cassette. Each cassette is a compromise. Offering different versions of a 11-29t won't be financially viable. Campagnolo have said the reason for only two cassettes is that have designed the rear mech specifically to keep the jockey wheel close only with these two cassettes. Introducing closer ratio cassettes or putting a two tooth gap fuether up may compromise shifting. The compromise maybe acceptable or not even noticeable who knows at present.

The road market follows what the MTB world pioneered years ago. Wide range cassettes that is. While some roadies may not like it it suits more people than it doesn't. With the move to double MTB chainsets cassette range got wider. With 1x it got will wider still although I little need off road for a ratio lower than 1:1 but that is partly due to were I ride and that I also ride a single speed.

12 speed is the opening for 1x. It coming.

If you really want close ratio gearing I have a old Alan with 52/44t and a 13-14-15-16-17-18t corn cob freewheel. There is also a Carlton with similar gearing.

Gearing is a compromise. Riders are allowed to vary there cadence you know.

morrisond
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by morrisond

Delorre wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:48 pm
The strange thing is, none of the ratio's mentioned in the patent are available until now, and the 2 that are available, were on the contrary not described. I hope those close ratio cassette will see the light in a short future

https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/art ... eed-51961/
I r3eally hope they offer the 12-27 12sp - that with an 52-36 would be my ideal.

neeb
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by neeb

bm0p700f wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:17 pm
I still don't get why the cassettes offered are a problem they are perfect for 1x12. Today I was riding my look in Yorkshire. Yorkshire has some testing climbs. 52t narrow wide chain ring and a 11-12-13-15-17-19-21-23-26-29-32t cassette with a 2015 record groupset. How come those gaps don't bother me. A extra cog would allow the 16t or perhaps 36t cog for really steep stuff. Given I can get up 20% gradients in 52-32t by squinting ( it makes the hill flatter) I'll take the 16t as I would use that more. The 15- 17t gap is not a problem though. I maybe a roadie but I have spent years riding single speed MTBs where steep hills are achieved by commitment and speed by spinning. A couple of years ago I did the south downs way which for those that don't know is a 100 mile trail in the south of England. Some road but alot of very steep off road climbs. I did it on a 61.5 inch gear (36t/17t with a 29*2.2" tyre) in 10.5 hrs. I was overtaking people one climbs wth very low gear ratios. I was the only rider on a single speed, I think it was a good choice. I think I stalled 8 times so this route is unfinished business. This is an good example why I don't care about how big the gaps are in a cassette.

There is an obession and it is an obession with minimising gaps in a cassette. Each cassette is a compromise. Offering different versions of a 11-29t won't be financially viable. Campagnolo have said the reason for only two cassettes is that have designed the rear mech specifically to keep the jockey wheel close only with these two cassettes. Introducing closer ratio cassettes or putting a two tooth gap fuether up may compromise shifting. The compromise maybe acceptable or not even noticeable who knows at present.

The road market follows what the MTB world pioneered years ago. Wide range cassettes that is. While some roadies may not like it it suits more people than it doesn't. With the move to double MTB chainsets cassette range got wider. With 1x it got will wider still although I little need off road for a ratio lower than 1:1 but that is partly due to were I ride and that I also ride a single speed.

12 speed is the opening for 1x. It coming.

If you really want close ratio gearing I have a old Alan with 52/44t and a 13-14-15-16-17-18t corn cob freewheel. There is also a Carlton with similar gearing.

Gearing is a compromise. Riders are allowed to vary there cadence you know.
Sorry, but with all due respect that's just inflammatory, bigoted nonsense.

As you yourself were implying earlier it's one thing to state what your own needs, choices and preferences are, it's quite another to rubbish the preferences of others.

If large gaps don't bother you that's fine. Perhaps that means that you're some sort of superhero, or perhaps it just means you aren't sensitive to the way in which gear choice affects your own power and performance because you aren't focussed on pushing yourself. Or perhaps it's just something that matters more to some people than others because of physiology or muscle fibre type - who knows? To call it an "obsession" is just ignorant and insulting and ignores the experiences of a huge number of road cyclists over many decades. Have you ever actually experimented to see how gear availability affects your sustainable maximum power over 10 or 20 minutes? I have, and it makes a difference.

Your comment about the road market following what the MTB world "pioneered years ago" is just laugably arrogant, ignorant and unintelligent at the same time. I'd actually call it Trumpist. To state the obvious, the needs of a mountain biker riding up uneven, loose surfaces with continuously variable gradients from one foot to the next are completely different from those of a road cyclist on tarmac.

neeb
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by neeb

And another thing...
bm0p700f wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:17 pm
Gearing is a compromise. Riders are allowed to vary there cadence you know.
And being forced to adopt a non-optimal cadence isn't a compromise?

It's precisely because gearing is a compromise, and because the ideal compromise varies between individuals and circumstances, that having a wide range of options is fundamental.

For all of the marketing rubbish about shifting feel and cassette-hugging, few things are more fundamental to the interface between human biomechanics and the bicycle than the gearing.

neeb
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by neeb

Oh, and...
bm0p700f wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:17 pm
Offering different versions of a 11-29t won't be financially viable.
No one was suggesting that, it was suggested that both an 11-29 and a 12-29 should be available, as they are currently for 11sp.

eric01
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by eric01

One thing's for sure, Campy marketing got it right. We have 20 pages of discussion. Probably 15 of those are about 12 speed, ratio's and gearing. Another 3 or 4 pages about how ugly it is. Imagine if Campy stuck with 11 speeds!
AX Lightness Vial Evo, Carl Strong Titanium

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I would prefer a wider range of cassettes my self but thinking more about what campagnolo have done here I am not sure it is possible without shifting compromises. We can't know for sure though until the groupsets are in the wild.

Yes I was being very blunt. Yes I push myself (you don't know me) but I don't subscribe to the theory there we have to keep our cadence in a narrow range. If all we do is ride at 80 to 100 rpm then that fine but that all you can do. That it self limits gearing choice to a 12-27t and the current groupsets. Chorus still exists for now. I know that in my own shop sales of 12-25t are non existent and 12-27t are poor. Shimano best selling cassette is the 11-28t. All the cassettes I sell have big sprockets at the back and that means 3t jumps somewhere.

It is possible campagnolo have geared the groupset at riders who ride like pro which is a bit elitist. They have lower tier groupsets for everyone else's that maybe there logic.

I still think that the new 12speed groups can be a more flexible platform with a longer cage rd and a wider ratio cassette i.e 1x12. However that would annoy even more of you.

As for cassette choice we are not privacy to campagnolo sales figures maybe not enough 12-29t cassettes are sold to justify making them. I think they are trying to cut costs by reducing the number of spares that could mean cassettes too.

I prefer 12t start cogs myself (53/39 and 12-27t is my favourite double arrangement) but I am not annoyed by 11-29t either in the way some are.

A 12-29 may come with the new EPS as the 11t cog is not compatible with EPS according to campag so it may come but that n 2019.

My comment about the road market following the direction the MTB market set is true. Tubeless, disc brakes, thru axles and soon 1x. There is a pattern folk. You might not like it but get used to it.

There is a bit of road elitism in this thread and maybe campagnolo have made an error that they will have to correct with cassette choices or maybe they will gain new customers and the expense of a few existing ones. Time will tell.

neeb
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by neeb

bm0p700f wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:57 am
My comment about the road market following the direction the MTB market set is true. Tubeless, disc brakes, thru axles and soon 1x. There is a pattern folk. You might not like it but get used to it.
None of which are optimal for road bikes and none of which I have adopted, or ever intend to. And TBH, I am absolutely sick and tired of statements politely pointing out the inappropriateness of these developments to most road cycling being labelled as “elitist” by industry stooges. We really are in the “false news” arena when it comes to the way this stuff is being marketed.

vejnemojnen
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by vejnemojnen

perfectly reasonable to justify a 11-t starter cog at record-sr level.

BUT for centaur, even 12t is quite an overkill. They should offer 13t starter cassettes at entry level groupsets (recall the 90ies shimano A410 RSX groupset with 46-36 with a 13-26 rear cluster? That was for leisre weekend warriors!)

And even smaller chainrings with 46-36 ratio or even a sub-compact gear.

12-27 and 12-29 both sound a fine choice for 12spd cassette, albeit I'd rarely if ever use the 12t.

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Kjetil
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by Kjetil

zappafile123 wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:23 pm
Kjetil wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:51 am
Going to get myself a Bianchi Specialissima
Don't... the Specialissima is <snip>
oh so pretty. :wink:

To be quite serious I've ridden the XR4 and it's great, but I don't "feel" it without 35-50 mm carbon rims. And I don't want 35-50 mm carbon rims.
Bianchi-Campagnolo

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Kjetil
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by Kjetil

Kjetil wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:31 am
zappafile123 wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:23 pm
Kjetil wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:51 am
Going to get myself a Bianchi Specialissima
Don't... the Specialissima is <snip>
oh so pretty. :wink:

To be quite serious I've ridden the XR4 and it's great, but I don't "feel" it without 35-50 mm carbon rims. And I don't want 35-50 mm carbon rims. I want Shamals, and my old Nucleon tubolari for Sundays.

.....

As for the needs of the weekend warrior it depends on where you are in the world. In Norway almost everything what weekend warriors/MAMILs do is double paceline riding. When you can't get your cadence above 80 you need the 11 cog. Of course almost everybody rides Shimano 11s 50/34 or 52/36 with 11-28 or 11-32 cassettes and they don't have a clue about what a reasonably well laid out cassette can do for your muscles.
Bianchi-Campagnolo

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Kjetil
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by Kjetil

zappafile123 wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:23 pm
Kjetil wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:51 am
Going to get myself a Bianchi Specialissima
Don't... the Specialissima is <snip>
oh so pretty. :wink:

To be quite serious I've ridden the XR4 and it's great, but I don't "feel" it without 35-50 mm carbon rims. And I don't want 35-50 mm carbon rims. I want Shamals, and my old Nucleon tubolari for Sundays.

An XR4 could be interesting with discs though.

.....

As for the needs of the weekend warrior it depends on where you are in the world. In Norway almost everything what weekend warriors/MAMILs do is double paceline riding. When you can't get your cadence above 80 you need the 11 cog. Of course almost everybody rides Shimano 11s 50/34 or 52/36 with 11-28 or 11-32 cassettes and they don't have a clue about what a reasonably well laid out cassette can do for your muscles.
Bianchi-Campagnolo

istigatrice
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by istigatrice

neeb wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:50 am
bm0p700f wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:57 am
My comment about the road market following the direction the MTB market set is true. Tubeless, disc brakes, thru axles and soon 1x. There is a pattern folk. You might not like it but get used to it.
None of which are optimal for road bikes and none of which I have adopted, or ever intend to. And TBH, I am absolutely sick and tired of statements politely pointing out the inappropriateness of these developments to most road cycling being labelled as “elitist” by industry stooges. We really are in the “false news” arena when it comes to the way this stuff is being marketed.
What I wanted to say in a nutshell. My perspective may be different to @neeb, though. From my viewpoint for those who race bikes as a sport, the majority of these developments are 'fake' improvements. Do you honestly believe that sealant is going to work at 80-100psi? I need to wear saftey goggles if I'm dealing with that sort of pressure in the lab. From my experiences with road tubless all of the sealant just squirts out when you flat. Why am I running 80-100psi? Well I have no interest in riding my bike off road, except for that one crazy race a year where my local cycling club does a 'gravel' race, which instead I volunteer for or skip.

However for those that ride for enjoyment there must be something nice in constantly getting 'improvements' for your bike. You can have your disk brakes, your 1x12, your tubeless tyres, etc.. I just hope that bike manufacturers recognise the other (possibly minor) share of the market, where a bike is just a (insert profanity here) tool to race with.
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Disclosure: I'm sponsored by Velocite, but I do give my honest opinion about them (I'm endorsed to race their bikes, not say nice things about them)

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ergott
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by ergott

istigatrice wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:25 pm

What I wanted to say in a nutshell. My perspective may be different to @neeb, though. From my viewpoint for those who race bikes as a sport, the majority of these developments are 'fake' improvements. Do you honestly believe that sealant is going to work at 80-100psi? I need to wear saftey goggles if I'm dealing with that sort of pressure in the lab. From my experiences with road tubless all of the sealant just squirts out when you flat. Why am I running 80-100psi? Well I have no interest in riding my bike off road, except for that one crazy race a year where my local cycling club does a 'gravel' race, which instead I volunteer for or skip.

However for those that ride for enjoyment there must be something nice in constantly getting 'improvements' for your bike. You can have your disk brakes, your 1x12, your tubeless tyres, etc.. I just hope that bike manufacturers recognise the other (possibly minor) share of the market, where a bike is just a (insert profanity here) tool to race with.
There's a growing divergence between road race bikes and the road bike for the average club rider/Fondo rider. I happen to like it. A lot of riders don't benefit from riding pro tour level bikes.

I'm glad both are being offered side by side right now.

ParisCarbon
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by ParisCarbon

I keep opening this thread hoping to read something about EPS, or see a spy shot.. and all I keep seeing is how the gear ratios suck :lol:

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