Campagnolo 12-Speed

[gwerziou]

I made an inquiry and in response, Easton claims that their double rings for the EC90 SL crank are also 12 speed Campy compatible. Does anyone have experience with this?

[zappafile123]

Are there any whispers for second generation campag 12speed? Its been just over three years now since 12 speed mech R/SR's release (April 2018). Given the length of last couple of product cycles, you'd expect something to drop at the end of the year or Q1 next year.

My view on 12-speed is that is was a bit of a step back on the preceeding generation of 11 spd - there's plenty of room for refinement.

[Gazelleer]

My view on 12-speed is that is was a bit of a step back on the preceeding generation of 11 spd - there's plenty of room for refinement.

I'd be interested to know why you think it is a step back

[zappafile123]

My view on 12-speed is that is was a bit of a step back on the preceeding generation of 11 spd - there's plenty of room for refinement.

I'd be interested to know why you think it is a step back

I think I expressed those views earlier in this thread. Basically, it boils down to refinement. Installation and setup is more finicky and sensitive than 11spd. It generally requires a little more ongoing maintenance to keep it dialled and happy. There are also variable issues with chain noise - some people (myself included) had groupsets with unrelenting chain rustle.

Once the groupset has worn in, the shift performance is more or less identical to the preceding generation - hop between two bikes (one with 2015-18 SR and the other SR 12spd) and the difference is miniscule. Front shifting to the big chain ring and shifting down the cassette is fractionally faster. The difference between th two is a bit more apparent when you first install the groups as shifting at the levers does feel very stiff for 12 spd. But eventually it gets to the point where 12spd shifting does feel lighter to the touch than 11spd.

All up you get a groupset thats relatively fickle, more expensive and heavier. It still works well once it's settled in, but taking into account the preceding generation, and progress in the competition, it's been a step backward. Keep in mind the same thing happened with first gen 11spd. Hopefully 2nd generation fixes the setup bugs and the weight problem (espeically the cassette - no reason a 11-29 should weigh more than 200g).

[Gazelleer]

Thank you for the elaborate reply!

Sounds like I didn't miss the boat when I went with a discounted Record H11 groupset on my Colnago V3. Not that I felt like that; it performs flawlessly.

[WorkonSunday]

they just added Ekar to the product cycle. I would imagine the next groupset will be Potenza/Centuar? Since Chorus price point and construction is slightly reduced for 12 speed to better match ultegra mechanical groupset. i would imagine, the next potenza will also be reduce slightly and combine with centaur to rival 105 (see what i did there )

speaking of Rival, after seeing sales of rival AXS, i do think campy really needs to realise record and chorus EPS soon..... some Rival AXS parts are backlogged to October already. there are so many customer with their locked-at-home holiday money ready to pour into expensive bikes. i really hope Campy can see that.

edit: also i think there are plenty of room to slot a equivalent of Fulcrum Wind series. moving from rim brakes, disc brake has far less concerns with brake track in the wet. there are plenty of safety margin can be removed by not having to design for brake track. as much as i love zonda and shamal ultra, i doubt many new comer to the sport will care about alloy wheels when they dont even mind dropping 1200USD+ onto a rival AXS. they just want to see carbon everywhere.

[corky]

"i really hope Campy can see that......."

It's not as simple as that...... these companies operate JIT they cannot just switch on production with the turn of a dial, likewise they can't turn it off quickly when demand drops off. They are beholden to suppliers that also suffer from a shortage of raw materials.
As my LBS told me supply of parts of all kinds and makes will take a couple of years to catch up.

[Nickldn]

My view on 12-speed is that is was a bit of a step back on the preceeding generation of 11 spd - there's plenty of room for refinement.

I'd be interested to know why you think it is a step back

I think I expressed those views earlier in this thread. Basically, it boils down to refinement. Installation and setup is more finicky and sensitive than 11spd. It generally requires a little more ongoing maintenance to keep it dialled and happy. There are also variable issues with chain noise - some people (myself included) had groupsets with unrelenting chain rustle.

Once the groupset has worn in, the shift performance is more or less identical to the preceding generation - hop between two bikes (one with 2015-18 SR and the other SR 12spd) and the difference is miniscule. Front shifting to the big chain ring and shifting down the cassette is fractionally faster. The difference between th two is a bit more apparent when you first install the groups as shifting at the levers does feel very stiff for 12 spd. But eventually it gets to the point where 12spd shifting does feel lighter to the touch than 11spd.

All up you get a groupset thats relatively fickle, more expensive and heavier. It still works well once it's settled in, but taking into account the preceding generation, and progress in the competition, it's been a step backward. Keep in mind the same thing happened with first gen 11spd. Hopefully 2nd generation fixes the setup bugs and the weight problem (espeically the cassette - no reason a 11-29 should weigh more than 200g).

I agree with the above observations, my Chorus 12s exhibits all of these issues. Compared to Ultegra it is stiff and needs more force at the levers to change gear. I hope it loosens up as the miles go on, but the precise mechanical feel is retained. That would make it truly fantastic!

The chain rustle is the most worrying 12s 'feature'. I get it in 4-5 cogs at the smaller end of the 11-29 Chorus cassette. The section I use the most. It is annoying compared to an almost silent 11s drive train. I spent ages trying to dial in the RD in to reduce the rustle, all in vain of course. Campy says it's 'normal'. I wonder if it's a cassette issue.

[Bobbyc123]

In agree with the noise on the 12s, it's annoying.

i'm still waiting for 12s EPSv4 so can't comment on that, but for 12s mechanical (apart from the noise) feel like it's much better than 11s. As mentioned, it's more responsive, i think it shifts faster and cleaner. The ergonomics, personally, are better and easier to down shift from the hoods and it's not prone to mis-shifting on the thumb shifter like the 11s system. (for me, it's more common to downshift twice by accident on the 11s)

The looks have also grown on me since they initially released and i think they look great. 11s looks dated to me now.

Looks wise, it would have been nice to see them refine the size of the FD on the 12s EPS like shimano have managed to do. The FD unit looks relatively unchanged from the 11s eps v3 system bulkiness and i've heard the shifting feels almost the same as the 11s which is a bit of a shame as i feel like EPS v3 feels a bit dull compared to the mechanical feel.

[Gazelleer]

Thank you for the elaborate reply!

Sounds like I didn't miss the boat when I went with a discounted Record H11 groupset on my Colnago V3. Not that I felt like that; it performs flawlessly.

I might need to add that I run the Record H11 (medium cage RD) groupset with a Dura Ace 9100 (50/34) crankset and a Chorus 11-speed chain on an Ultegra 11-speed (11-32) cassette.

[Miller]

Looks wise, it would have been nice to see them refine the size of the FD on the 12s EPS like shimano have managed to do. The FD unit looks relatively unchanged from the 11s eps v3 system bulkiness and i've heard the shifting feels almost the same as the 11s which is a bit of a shame as i feel like EPS v3 feels a bit dull compared to the mechanical feel.

I dunno, if I were Campag I'd sigh on reading that EPS shifting is 'dull' You press a button, you get a shift. What else is meant to happen? I expect next-gen EPS, or whatever they call it, will feature new design mechanisms. I think the basic design of the front and rear EPS mechs goes all the way back to mid noughties, I remember seeing spy shots on Cyclingnews years before an official launch. No doubt that they're powerful and reliable but I'm sure they could be built more sleekly now.

[DaveS]

For those having chain noise, try a sram axs 12 speed chain. I alternated between campy and sram axs chains for a year, before switching to sram force axs components, except for the crank. The 13T difference at the crank doesn’t do it for me.

[mag]

So you used that flattop chain without any isues? Still it looks a little weird to me.

[Nickldn]

So you used that flattop chain without any isues? Still it looks a little weird to me.

More aero?

I heard somewhere sram axs has slightly different spacing, just a fraction of an inch but might cause uneven chainring/cassette wear on Campy?

[F10]

Thank you for the elaborate reply!

Sounds like I didn't miss the boat when I went with a discounted Record H11 groupset on my Colnago V3. Not that I felt like that; it performs flawlessly.

I might need to add that I run the Record H11 (medium cage RD) groupset with a Dura Ace 9100 (50/34) crankset and a Chorus 11-speed chain on an Ultegra 11-speed (11-32) cassette.

Interesting! I have full Chorus H11; I'd assumed cassette spacing / freehub width was different to Shimano so no cross compatibility. Not the case then?