c60rider wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:12 pm
So visiting the cycle show in the UK this weekend I asked Graeme on P2M claiming that their spider is now compatible with both 11 and 12 speed. The feedback was that it is definitely NOT compatible with the reason being that the spacing is incorrect. So I think what I read into that is the 12 speed rings will fit onto the spider, and it will have to be the Record rings as the SR are different, but there is a fraction of a millimetre difference in the gap because of the 12 rings being slightly thinner and needing a tiny bit less gap. Campagnolo won't endorse it but I guess P2M have tested it and found it works without any problems. That's great however, for me, there are several issues. If I did that, will P2M warranty my kit as I'm not using what Campagnolo recommends so my warranty with Campagnolo is likely void. And I don't want 11 speed on my cranks when using 12 speed. It's all very messy and I think we need P2M to come out and say exactly what the difference is and if they are going to warranty it or come to an agreement with Campagnolo before I pull the trigger on this. It's all getting too close on tolerances yet Campagnolo contradict themselves a bit by saying the new 12 crankset is compatible with both rim and disc brakes whereas the 11 speed needed a new crankset to change the Q angle. Well 12 speed cranks can't be perfect for both rim and disc! The Q angle must be somewhere in between what would be perfect for rim and disc but they're not saying how much of a fraction of a mm difference that is. I suspect the same is the case with P2M 11/12 rings working on the same spider.
Assuming UAE and Movistar are both being sponsored next year it will probably be clearer. I can imagine they'll be using 12 rings as P2M claim and probably have no issues but using 11 cranks.
Not quite correct.
12v and 11s HO / H11 have re-profiled chainring teeth which in combination with a revised chainline at plus 1 mm (44.5 mm +/- 0.5mm) means that we have good shift function on both rim (130 OLN) and disc (135mm effective OLN). This also, to acheive what is required, needs to be used in partnership with the revised RDs (in the case of 11s) - so there is no contradiction at all.
Q factor (lateral dispalcement of outside surface of crank to outside suface of opposite crank) is the same between all three cranksets, 11s, 11s H11 and 12s - standard and HO and it is to maintain Q & U factor (ankle clearance) that the changes made to enable good function on both rim and disc is made predominantly in the rings - the ring spacing in 11s HO is also modified as an extension of the chainline problem is that of "rattle" of the chain on the back of the big chainring when running cross-chained small-small combinations (yes, we all know you shouldn't but in the real world, users do).
There is no "Q angle".
Can I use rim 11s with 11s disc, can I use 11s rim or disc with 12s, will the chain mesh, etc, etc?
Well, it "may" work, it "may" work to *your* satisfaction but it won't work to *Campagnolo's* satisfaction so if you do it, you are on your own and it's no good complaining that "Campagnolo doesn't work properly" if you stray away from what they recommend. I've seen gear systems "working" to the user's satisfaction that I would not allow outside my workshop in a million years but they appear perfectly happy ... seems just plain daft to me to spend a lot of money for a top-of-the-line component group and frame, then to try and cut corners and have to accept compromised function and no warranty as a result.
If I've said it once, I've said it a million times - don't look at what the pro teams are doing and take it as good, safe or acceptable practice as an end-user - we / Campagnolo use the pro teams (as do P2M and everyone else in partnership with them) in part as test-beds - sometimes they'll be running a stock solution, sometimes they won't, sometimes it'll be something that Campagnolo are experimenting with, sometimes it will be something that is already 100% and sometimes they are just playing "what if?" That's a big part of sponsorship, alongside the obvious benefit of putting the brand out there - and is part of the reason why Campagnolo like long term relationships like the one they have with Movistar - we get excellent feedback from them, as we do from Lotto-Soudal, UAE and so on.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
