Campagnolo 12-Speed

[Calnago]

Yup, ok... yes, so we're on the same page as to where we're looking, but the hook of the hanger is completely out of sight and behind that area. It's underneath. But even looking at just this photo below, you can see the angle between the joint and the hanger appears to be even less than 90 degrees... it should as a minimum be greater... and pointing downwards, not up. And the only way that could be I would think is if the stop on tha backside wasn't against the hook on the derailleur tab.
Heres' the pic posted again...

50X11 Lat View:

One thing's for sure @Pierrotdu37... you're getting some good eyes on this issue at the moment. We'll get you sorted, since it would be terrible if one of the first people with the 12sp stuff is riding around telling his friends "Whuhoo, I've got the new 12sp stuff and it is totally awesome, best ever"... when in fact it's shifting like shit.

[zank]

Yup. I'm with ya

[zank]

This is the pic that had me thinking it's making contact with the hanger tab. A clearer pic with the wheel out will tell the story though.

[Calnago]

Yeah, ok that’s what I thought you meant... I just can’t see that there’s contact myself. Like you say, a pic from Pierre will help at this point. He’s probably out riding now, like I will be shortly.

[Kjetil]

Looking at this thread I think of a couple of things:
1) Mounting a piece which has to rotate links to meet a tab with a rechts bolt is still not a very good design.
2) Retrofit direct mount derailleur hangers for all! Pilo of Israel, I hope you read this.

[Pierrotdu37]

OK guys I think I got you!

I removed the wheel for the sake of the science and took another pic.
Do you think I should unscrew the big white bolt C so the black tip A rotates and locks with the hanger B like I drawn it?



I have a 3+ hours ride scheduled this afternoon so I'll do it after, If you confirm my diagnostic.
Anything else to re adjust after that?
I don't know this b screw you mentioned?!
If it's just a matter of unscrewing the big white bolt, push the derailleur forward so the tip is locked by the hanger and tight everything I'll do it this evening (you know the right values in Nm?).
If it needs a fine adjustement I'll bring it back to the shop after I placed correctly the derailleur.

[Pierrotdu37]

And after that find someone else!!!!!

[zank]

Yes! Thank you for taking that pic. I was wrong. The stop should be in contact with the tab. Rotate it down. Loosen the main mounting bolt, rotate it down until they make contact, and tighten to 10-12 Nm.
The b screw is the small screw at the other end of that black piece. It controls the gap between the pulley wheel and cog. You want to shift into the smallest cog and big chainring. Then follow the instructions below at the bottom of the page below titled "The upper wheel should be positioned as follows". Screw H in the instructions below is the B screw.

[Calnago]

Ok, good... so you're almost there. After you reposition the derailleur so that the tab is against the stop, then you may have to adjust the "H" screw as indicated in Fig. 13 of that page that @zanc just posted from the technical manual. Now, Campy Italian to English translations have not exactly been known to always be the most easy things to figure out. And sometimes I think things get lost in translation from the Italian tech guy to the English tech guy but, and I'm not 100% positive here as I've not actually installed a 12sp derailleur yet, I think I would bet one of my SRM powermeters that there is kind of major error in their instructions above....
Where they say to make the adjustment to the H-screw while the chain is on the smallest cog and largest chainring, I'm pretty sure that they mean smallest cog and smallest chainring. So, if I'm correct in that, that's not just a typo but kind of a major error in their technical manual. Anyway, once you have the derailleur repositioned, play with the "H" screw with the chain on the small cog/small chainring to ensure that there is just enough tension on it to keep it from rubbing on itelf but not so much that it's pulling the upper pulley further away from the cogs any more than it needs to. And all should be good. I'm going to assume that at least the limit screws are set, but given the state of the initial setup you may want to double check to make sure there's no chance you could inadvertently shift the chain into the spokes.

The final thing is to doublecheck how the derailleur cable is attached to the derailleur at the anchor bolt. I said it earlier, but in looking at it I wasn't sure that even that wasn't routed correctly, but couldn't tell 100% from the picture.

The other interesting thing to note with the new derailleur is that what was commonly referred to the "H" screw in the previous generation of derailleur was a screw on the actual base of the pulley cage, and it was used to adjust the gap between the largest cog and the upper pulley when the chain was in largest cog/smallest chainring. That H screw as we knew it seems to be gone, and what they are labelling as "H" in their diagram now is the equivalent of Shimano's B-screw.

You should be well on your way to getting this sorted out, but holy smokes... tell the owner of the bike shop to get his staff some proper mechanical training, or at least have some measures in place to ensure that whoever is installing this stuff knows what they're doing.

Cal

[zank]

Once the chain length is fixed to 110 links, the small cog/big chainring gap adjustment will take care of it. The photo is misleading because it was taken in the small/small. The derailleur geometry takes care of the other pulley gaps in the extreme combos. The B tension should not be needed for chain tension. I should add though that it does say to confirm in both chainrings.

[Calnago]

Once the chain length is fixed to 110 links, the small cog/big chainring gap adjustment will take care of it. The photo is misleading because it was taken in the small/small. The derailleur geometry takes care of the other pulley gaps in the extreme combos. The B tension should not be needed for chain tension. I should add though that it does say to confirm in both chainrings.

Hmmm, I’ll check that out when I get the chance, but I have a feeling that you could adjust things in the Big Chainring/Small cog such that it seems fine yet in the small ring it’s not fine. For instance, I would imagine if you had it in big chainring/ small cog you could back the “H” screw pretty far out and it would seem fine until you drop it into the small ring/small cog, where it might be too slack at that setting. Kinda going on my experience with Shimano however so I’ll defer to actual experience when I get it. Seems adjusting it in small small might get you to the best adjustment in the most extreme case. Not convinced yet that isn’t an error in the tech manual. We know that there is at least one error... either the picture or the text. I’m betting it’s the text, although admittedly that seems like a pretty blatant error if it is.

[XCProMD]

Cal, unlike Shimano, Campag’s 12s RD has a spring in what’s commonly called A-knuckle, this is, between the link that makes for the lack of DM hanger and what used to be the attaching bolt of the derailleur.

That makes Campag’s RD able to take more chain slack is small-small.


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[Calnago]

@XCproMD: Yes, I assume it can, like Shimano, take up a lot of slack. But is that correct?.... that you should make the final adjustment while in Big Chainring/small cog?
Also unlike previously, it doesn’t seem like you even worry about the distance between the upper pulley and the largest cog when in small chainring/ big cog? Is that right? There doesn’t seem to be a separate adjustment for that like the previous generation. I know that you, with your work are pretty tied into the Campy development process.

[ParisCarbon]

So just saw this on CN.. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/campagn ... de-france/
Interesting they say (and it looks like) Greipel is using just a standard Super Record crank not the HO model (CN is historic for getting all their info backwards in my opinion, but whatever) Anyways... this would effectively change the chainline by that ever so famous 1mm we've been talking about.... soooo this goes to possibly show that the 11s cranks do work fine.. and the SRM should be fine as well on a 12 with rings? If its good enough for Greipel...

[XCProMD]

Yes but we are mostly a material supplier, I get to know details from the mechanical engineering team “through the grapevine”.

I honestly haven’t read all the manuals yet. I know the RD has been designed to be “self-adjusting” in pulley to cog distance but still there is a grub screw at the A-knuckle that sets the neutral position of the spring I was talking in my previous post. I, like you , would and will adjust that one so I make sure that the upper pulley is as close as possible but doesn’t interfere with the bigger cog in the small chainring.

“So it shall be written, so it shall be done”


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