Campagnolo 12-Speed

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
robertbb
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

RE: Canyon, as long as the frame you're getting is carbon, and one of the upper level SLX ones made by Quest composites, you'll get a frame of about as high quality as they come.

Their cheaper (SL) frames and their alloy offerings... not so much.
It's ALL about the bike.

RobertBB's CyclePlanner Spreadsheet:
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... 8&t=152263

thePrince
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:09 am

by thePrince

ultimobici wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:01 pm
corky wrote:
ultimobici wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:01 pm
markyboy wrote:Will it be wireless?
Unlikely. Read Graeme’s post a little ways up.

Wired is more reliable and allows a quicker shift. That’s why Shimano & Campagnolo have stuck with it so far.


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Thought it was more to do with SRAMs patent on battery holders on front and rear mechs.......although C and S are unlikely to admit t to this......
I doubt it. Anyway judging by the number of spare batteries we’ve sold it’s not something Shimano or Campagnolo need work about.


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Sorry ultimobici, this is absolutely incorrect. SRAM has the patent, and S/C are stuck with wired shifting. Do you really think S/C prefers wired shifting to wireless? The only advantage is a barely noticeable millisecond "faster shifting". Unless you prefer a wired system where you have to house a large single battery with wires running to all the components. And you prefer a system where crimping any of those wires mid-ride/race renders the entire system useless.

This is acceptable at the pro level because a crashmode Di2 or crimped wire Di2 results in a new bike for protected riders, or a DNF/barely time cut for non-protected riders. At the amateur level, ask a neutral service mechanic for solutions for Di2 issue. Mech anything = physical manipulation to get back on the road. eTap = new battery. Wired S/C = pit bike until they are gone.

And consider aero implications and directional frame design. Why would you want to have to run wires internally through increasingly proprietary frame/stem/handlebar/etc.


ooo
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm

by ooo

S/C can buy semi-wireless IP from FSA (WE)?
'

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

thePrince wrote:
ultimobici wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:01 pm
corky wrote:
ultimobici wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:01 pm
Unlikely. Read Graeme’s post a little ways up.

Wired is more reliable and allows a quicker shift. That’s why Shimano & Campagnolo have stuck with it so far.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thought it was more to do with SRAMs patent on battery holders on front and rear mechs.......although C and S are unlikely to admit t to this......
I doubt it. Anyway judging by the number of spare batteries we’ve sold it’s not something Shimano or Campagnolo need work about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sorry ultimobici, this is absolutely incorrect. SRAM has the patent, and S/C are stuck with wired shifting. Do you really think S/C prefers wired shifting to wireless? The only advantage is a barely noticeable millisecond "faster shifting". Unless you prefer a wired system where you have to house a large single battery with wires running to all the components. And you prefer a system where crimping any of those wires mid-ride/race renders the entire system useless.

This is acceptable at the pro level because a crashmode Di2 or crimped wire Di2 results in a new bike for protected riders, or a DNF/barely time cut for non-protected riders. At the amateur level, ask a neutral service mechanic for solutions for Di2 issue. Mech anything = physical manipulation to get back on the road. eTap = new battery. Wired S/C = pit bike until they are gone.

And consider aero implications and directional frame design. Why would you want to have to run wires internally through increasingly proprietary frame/stem/handlebar/etc.
Patent aside I disagree. Been selling Di2 & EPS for years. Warranty issues are minimal compared to volume sold. Etap is much newer yet the warranty issues are much higher proportionately. As for crash damage, it’s not that big a problem from what I have seen. Crash damage is expensive on electronic bikes no matter what. I’ve seen totalled mechs from all 3 manufacturers. Etap mechs with battery tabs that are shot are just as final as torn cabling on EPS or Di2.


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Gelly
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:58 am

by Gelly

Campagnolo 12 speed groupset works perfectly with 11 speed cranksets. The inner face of the outer ring to the inner face of the inner ring on a 12 speed crankset is 8.0mm. On an 11 speed ultra torque/power torque/over torque it is 7.7mm. Yes, that’s right, the 11 speed rings are closer together. This is partially offset because the rings are 0.15mm thinner on 12 speed making the gap between rings 0.075 bigger on 12 speed. The chain pitch is the same so effectively the only difference is that a 12 speed chain has a little less (0.15mm) slop (side to side movement) when sat on an 11 speed chainring. I have done 3000km on a 12 speed record group with 11 speed over torque crankset without a single missed gear change. It works better (smoother and quieter) than a pure matched 11 speed setup and with no difference at all to a pure 12 speed setup. (Yes, I’ve done both)

Of course it might not be OK as far as Campagnolo are concerned. But then a record 12 crankset is almost £500 so they are bound to say that. If someone wants to pay £500 extra so they don’t have an “11” on your cranks then that’s fine.. but think if it bothers you that much carefully sand it off and relaquer! Some have more money than sense. And here was me thinking most cyclists are tight!! :-)

Alexandrumarian
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Location: Romania

by Alexandrumarian

Gelly wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:15 am
Campagnolo 12 speed groupset works perfectly with 11 speed cranksets.....
Interesting, thanks for the report. What ergo and shifter did you use, the 11 or 12. I wonder if mechanical ergos can be bought separately, prob not.

Gelly
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Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:58 am

by Gelly

12 speed record ergo, cassette 11-32, chain, front and rear derailleur. 11 speed over torque crankset 50-34. On a look 595 ultra medium with 405mm chainstays

Alexandrumarian
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Location: Romania

by Alexandrumarian

Thanks. What about brakes. If you still have the old, did you notice any change coming from the new levers?

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

Gelly wrote:12 speed record ergo, cassette 11-32, chain, front and rear derailleur. 11 speed over torque crankset 50-34. On a look 595 ultra medium with 405mm chainstays
Good to know!


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Gelly
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Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:58 am

by Gelly

11 speed brakes. No difference.

Kumppa
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Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:05 am

by Kumppa

Thank you Gelly! I still might try 12sp with Dzero.

Gelly
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:58 am

by Gelly

Can’t see any reason why it wouldn’t work. The main concerns with using an 11 speed crank with 12 speed setup seem to centre around a presumption that the gap between chainrings is smaller for 12 speed than 11. In actual Fact it is bigger on 12x. And that the chain will be too narrow for 11 speed rings. Again, although the chain is narrower the reduction in chainring thinkness is so tiny (0.015mm) it makes no difference at all. A chain still needs a fair amount of clearance to run smoothly, all it means is the chain has less clearance but still more than enough. It makes no perceptible difference at all.

c60rider
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

The only problem I foresee is if you have a fault with any of the drive train items it could be that Campagnolo will say you're not using it as specified so your warranty is invalid. That's the only thing i really dislike about how tight tolerances are claimed to be that manufacturers will say it's not compatible. Real world use seems to contradict this but you will never see a manufacturer back this up.

avispa
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:36 am

by avispa

Gelly wrote:Campagnolo 12 speed groupset works perfectly with 11 speed cranksets. The inner face of the outer ring to the inner face of the inner ring on a 12 speed crankset is 8.0mm. On an 11 speed ultra torque/power torque/over torque it is 7.7mm. Yes, that’s right, the 11 speed rings are closer together. This is partially offset because the rings are 0.15mm thinner on 12 speed making the gap between rings 0.075 bigger on 12 speed. The chain pitch is the same so effectively the only difference is that a 12 speed chain has a little less (0.15mm) slop (side to side movement) when sat on an 11 speed chainring. I have done 3000km on a 12 speed record group with 11 speed over torque crankset without a single missed gear change. It works better (smoother and quieter) than a pure matched 11 speed setup and with no difference at all to a pure 12 speed setup. (Yes, I’ve done both)

Of course it might not be OK as far as Campagnolo are concerned. But then a record 12 crankset is almost £500 so they are bound to say that. If someone wants to pay £500 extra so they don’t have an “11” on your cranks then that’s fine.. but think if it bothers you that much carefully sand it off and relaquer! Some have more money than sense. And here was me thinking most cyclists are tight!! :-)
Great info.... I wonder if a 12 speed chain will work best on an 11 speed drive train? All Campy of course...


fogman
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:36 pm

by fogman

Will my current Campagnolo 11 speed chain tool be compatible with a 12 speed chain?


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