Campagnolo 12-Speed

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Pierrotdu37
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:16 pm
Location: France

by Pierrotdu37

To O.Rodriguez,thanks for the pics.

Could you check if anywhere ON the chain or the cassette there is a reference for "Super Record"?

I've bought a Record 12V groupset and it's been set up by my LBS, but he told me that since Campa France didn't have the full set they (Campagnolo, at NO extra cost) completed my order by a SR cassette and chain. Not sure if true or B.S

My chain looks exactly as yours, with R12 on the links (and not SR12 if this exists) and nowhere ON the cassette is written Record or Super record or SR....?!

Image

mag
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:23 pm

by mag

There's only one 12s chain type at the moment, labeled as Super Record, with R12 makrings on the links and product code CN19-SR1214.
Similarly there's only one 12s cassette type (with 2 variants: 11-29T and 11-32T), labeled as Super Record and with product codes of these 2 variants CS19-SR1219 and CS19-SR1212.

These are used in both 12s SR and Record groupsets.


Pierrotdu37
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:16 pm
Location: France

by Pierrotdu37

Thank you for these interesting infos.
My LBS also told me that the bearings of my record cranckset/BB were actually some SR bearings.

Any info about this?

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 6560
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Given what we already know about your bike shop, their latest assertion that your Record cranks have CULT bearings catapults their credibility to outlandish, egregious, preposterous, and let’s throw in an affront on humanity...
Image

Have they replaced and rerouted your rear brake housing/cable yet?
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ParisCarbon
Posts: 1059
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:39 am
Location: Winnipeg Canada

by ParisCarbon

So just sent an email off to P2Max and got a pretty quick reply about the status of 12 spd unit.. their response like someone else mentioned was chainring.. they stated that Campy and a few pro teams were testing the current 11s unit with 12s rings and awaiting the verdict.. they said it was going to be up to Campy to decide... so maybe there will be a specific ring supplied to them instead of redesigning the entire unit.. seems like they have a pretty good working relationship...
Followed up with a response to them asking a few more things... they said Campy said the chainline changed in the chainring design, and it was upto Campy to decide if they wanted teams like Movistar to be riding the new stlye crank design or keep the current one.. they said they will accomodate..

I went digging into the Campy spare parts catalog, and noted that the H11 chainrings which are offset the 1mm (same as new 12 spd) are indeed a different PN than the regular non H cranksets...

graeme_f_k
Shop Owner / Manufacturer
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 12:21 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

by graeme_f_k

Pierrotdu37 wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:00 pm
Thank you for these interesting infos.
My LBS also told me that the bearings of my record cranckset/BB were actually some SR bearings.

Any info about this?
SR uses the ceramic / Cronitect bearing system it has always used. It has a Ti axle and the fixing bolt retains the LH thread to prevent the inadvertant (or delibearte) attempt to fit the Ti bolt into a steel axle with the problem of galling / binding that can result.
Record uses the steel / steel bearing system like Chorus etc, so is no longer using the USB system as it was in the 11s versions. It has a stainless steel axle.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC

graeme_f_k
Shop Owner / Manufacturer
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 12:21 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

by graeme_f_k

ParisCarbon wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:13 am
So just sent an email off to P2Max and got a pretty quick reply about the status of 12 spd unit.. their response like someone else mentioned was chainring.. they stated that Campy and a few pro teams were testing the current 11s unit with 12s rings and awaiting the verdict.. they said it was going to be up to Campy to decide... so maybe there will be a specific ring supplied to them instead of redesigning the entire unit.. seems like they have a pretty good working relationship...
Followed up with a response to them asking a few more things... they said Campy said the chainline changed in the chainring design, and it was upto Campy to decide if they wanted teams like Movistar to be riding the new stlye crank design or keep the current one.. they said they will accomodate..

I went digging into the Campy spare parts catalog, and noted that the H11 chainrings which are offset the 1mm (same as new 12 spd) are indeed a different PN than the regular non H cranksets...
That's because they are a different part - or more accurately, six different parts.

Likewise, 12s are different parts ...

SR rings and RE outer rings are different and not interchangeable in 12s.
Inner rings are interchangeable between RE and SR 12s and are a different part to their 11s equivalents.

Chainring spacing is changed in 12s from 11s / 11s HO (hence the H11 descriptor on the high end groups last year, before 12s was announced) and since Campagnolo have historically managed part of the chainring spacing difference required by different iterations of the cranksets both on the crankset and on the ring, the 12s rings for full, correct and predictable function are not recommended as interchangeable with 11s or 11HO.

Please remember that just because the pro teams are doing something, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's OK, in the context of warranty and so on, for others to do it. Pro teams are test beds as well as marketing and what they appear to be doing is also, sometimes, not what they are *actually* doing ...
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC

mag
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:23 pm

by mag

In the case P2M goes the chainrings way I'm wondering if they'll at least try to come up with special chainrings that will (maybe only partially, depending on what's physically possible) compensate for the spacing and position differences between the 11s and 12s.

They may be simply thinking along the lines "fit in there 12s chainrings and be done with that" which would mean that everything would be a little off at the front and with a suboptimal operation. I hope they test their solution properly and don't release some half-assed solution.

ParisCarbon
Posts: 1059
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:39 am
Location: Winnipeg Canada

by ParisCarbon

graeme_f_k wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:40 am
ParisCarbon wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:13 am
So just sent an email off to P2Max and got a pretty quick reply about the status of 12 spd unit.. their response like someone else mentioned was chainring.. they stated that Campy and a few pro teams were testing the current 11s unit with 12s rings and awaiting the verdict.. they said it was going to be up to Campy to decide... so maybe there will be a specific ring supplied to them instead of redesigning the entire unit.. seems like they have a pretty good working relationship...
Followed up with a response to them asking a few more things... they said Campy said the chainline changed in the chainring design, and it was upto Campy to decide if they wanted teams like Movistar to be riding the new stlye crank design or keep the current one.. they said they will accomodate..

I went digging into the Campy spare parts catalog, and noted that the H11 chainrings which are offset the 1mm (same as new 12 spd) are indeed a different PN than the regular non H cranksets...
That's because they are a different part - or more accurately, six different parts.

Likewise, 12s are different parts ...

SR rings and RE outer rings are different and not interchangeable in 12s.
Inner rings are interchangeable between RE and SR 12s and are a different part to their 11s equivalents.

Chainring spacing is changed in 12s from 11s / 11s HO (hence the H11 descriptor on the high end groups last year, before 12s was announced) and since Campagnolo have historically managed part of the chainring spacing difference required by different iterations of the cranksets both on the crankset and on the ring, the 12s rings for full, correct and predictable function are not recommended as interchangeable with 11s or 11HO.

Please remember that just because the pro teams are doing something, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's OK, in the context of warranty and so on, for others to do it. Pro teams are test beds as well as marketing and what they appear to be doing is also, sometimes, not what they are *actually* doing ...
Hi Graeme,
Ive been off of Campy for a few years now experimented with Di2, but want to come back to old faithful as I await EPS 12... so with the H11 stuff... do those rings not have the 1mm offset built into them, the same 1mm offset that is now in the 12 speed stuff? It seems to me that P2Max and Campy are trying to "make it work" without a full redesign.. so my thought in the post after reading it was that if it IS in the chainring (like I thought H11 was to offset it 1mm) then in theory putting on the new 12s ring on the P2Max 11 unit would be the same offset as a 12s crank? Maybe Im wrong? SRM reiterated something similar to me where it was a matter of chainrings...

bm0p700f
in the industry
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
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by bm0p700f

as sales of campagnolo 12 speed continue power meter solutions will follow there just has to be the business case first. wait a year and the P2max and SRM will have options but maybe no based on a campagnolo chainset. another chainset or a current one might be adapted to 12 speed with new rings. that might be cheaper. who knows.

bm0p700f
in the industry
Posts: 4064
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
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by bm0p700f

perhaps campagnolo have reliased that having the lowest weight groupset means nothing more than braggin right referring to an earlier post. the number of groupset sales based on weight must be small and there not worth chasing. good for campagnolo it about time some realism took hold in the bike world.

ParisCarbon
Posts: 1059
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:39 am
Location: Winnipeg Canada

by ParisCarbon

bm0p700f wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:00 pm
as sales of campagnolo 12 speed continue power meter solutions will follow there just has to be the business case first. wait a year and the P2max and SRM will have options but maybe no based on a campagnolo chainset. another chainset or a current one might be adapted to 12 speed with new rings. that might be cheaper. who knows.
P2Max is prepared to redesign, but the way the email was worded to me was it all depends on what Campagnolo wants it to look like... so its coming... I wouldnt expect anything til Tour down under time when we should probably see EPS 12 hit the pro bikes...

Alexandrumarian
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:34 pm
Location: Romania

by Alexandrumarian

I just got the SR brakes. Nice way to throw 350e down the drain. I bought them specifically because they advertised compatibility with 28mm tires. I imagined this meant they increased the clearance compared to the previous gen. I have Record 2015 brakes and while the back is perfect, if I put 27mm tubs on Boras the top clearance is tight, i often hear road debris screeching in there. I needed 1-2mm more to be just fine. So I bought the new brakes and not only there is no extra clearance, it actualy looks much tighter than before. Photos are with 25mm Michelin tires on narrow DT rims (actual 27mm width).
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c60rider
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

Well that's pretty poor what they must be meaning is an actual measured size 28 is the biggest that will fit. This really grates with me why for clinchers tyre manufacturers can't measure tyres. For example there isn't one wheel c15, 17 or 19 that i have that a so- called 23mm gp4000 actually measures at 23mm so how do they actually call it a 23mm? So a 25mm is coming out much bigger and for Conti and Vittoria that I use that will be the biggest that will fit.

One final thought is where are the brake pads positioned is there any more adjustment there? That would be down to frame compatibility with tyres as well. I was hoping to get at least 25mm contis and thin mudguards under these so that might be the decider to go disc brake for a winter bike for me.

Alexandrumarian
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:34 pm
Location: Romania

by Alexandrumarian

I realize my fork is drilled very close to the tire but still, I imagined the new brakes will simply be wider *all around* compared to the previous generation. In the past few years everybody is crazy about wide so why on earth woudl they make the new ones worse and at the same time advertise about clearance?! If I could barely use 27mm Veloflex tubs before, it looks like they would not work at all with the new brakes...


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