Campagnolo 12-Speed

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
ParisCarbon
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by ParisCarbon

Apparently the chainline change was done withing the crank itself... P2Max told me they had to redesign their powermeter to accomodate the 12 spd...
Hopefully soon some of the Pro Teams will be on EPS 12 and we can see what they do regarding using Powermeters.. Id guess the 2 SRM sponsored teams will just switch to the Exakt system, and the P2Max teams will just stick with 11 until the 12 unit is ready...

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

Kumppa wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:34 pm
Would be interesting to know more about 12sp chainrings and can you use them with 11sp crank.
No, you won't get the correct ring spacing and the SR ring fitting is subtly different anyway ...
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graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

c60rider wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:04 pm
Graeme F-K said the 12 speed rings might fit existing P2M and SRM power meters with a slight mod. I'm guessing a spacer of some sort but I should have asked him a bit more. We'll see at the tour if anyone has 12 speed and what crank combo they're using. I can imagine it will be next year until either power meter has specific 12 speed cranks to match the new kit
Checked on this for you (sorry to be a while coming back, super-busy), no go ... the chainline and spacing are managed with a combination of crank and ring changes.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC

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Calnago
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by Calnago

graeme_f_k wrote:...no go ... the chainline and spacing are managed with a combination of crank and ring changes.
Graeme, so while you’re on here, brief as it may be... where does the 12sp stuff leave the “HO” cranks? I’ve always wondered if the “Hydraulic Optimized” (dumb name by the way, but the Italian makes up for it) cranks are as “optimized” for the current 11sp drivetrains in 130mm spaced dropouts as the cranks immediately prior to the HO version. Seems they changed the spacing in the HO version a bit to accommodate the wider dropout specs for discs, which is fine, but I can’t help thinking that also had to compromise the existing “optimized” 11sp cranks, which seemed pretty darned optimized for the chainline of 130mm spacing. Going forward they said the new HO cranks work on both, correct?... yet I wonder if the Pre HO cranks are still slightly better for Bikes with chainlines based on 130mm dropout spacing.
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ParisCarbon
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by ParisCarbon

graeme_f_k wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:40 am
c60rider wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:04 pm
Graeme F-K said the 12 speed rings might fit existing P2M and SRM power meters with a slight mod. I'm guessing a spacer of some sort but I should have asked him a bit more. We'll see at the tour if anyone has 12 speed and what crank combo they're using. I can imagine it will be next year until either power meter has specific 12 speed cranks to match the new kit
Checked on this for you (sorry to be a while coming back, super-busy), no go ... the chainline and spacing are managed with a combination of crank and ring changes.
This leaves very limited options for the Campy crankbase powermeter group... SRM told me that had no plans to redesign the 12spd unit, but SRM is usually very hush on everything and probably working on one right now.. the 11 spd unit is gone from their website... Don't know what the Euro EPS release time frame is, but Campy USA told me expect early 2019... maybe we see something at the tour? Id assume that if P2Max or SRM decided to emulate the Super rec setup, they will need to build the chainring brace into the PM itself... or just not bother...

glam2deaf
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by glam2deaf

Looking at the SRM webiste now, the Campagnolo option is still showing. But also looking at thier website everything they are providing is modular. I would say that now they have the Origin their interest in models that require special arms is fairly low.

zappafile123
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by zappafile123

So apparently Dura Ace 12 Speed is coming out in the relatively near future so hopefully this will push demand for 12spd chainrings.

Also I'd like to complain about power2max. Their Type-S PM was competitively priced and functioned perfectly ($1999). The NG version, OTH comfortably pushes into the territory of being too expensive. A new Campagnolo NG power meter is 2599aud. Why would you buy this when you could get something or roughly equal quality like a Quarq for $1000 less (and even less if you work in the industry)?
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c60rider
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by c60rider

You can't really complain about the price a company charges for a product. Vote with your wallet. I'm delighted at my NG but now they've released the NGeco the more expensive NG probably doesn't make sense for most. People buy SRM Campag at even more cost but I'm not going to complain at them about that I personally can't justify paying that but if you can then I'm fine with that. Just don't buy it if you don't like the price. :noidea:

zappafile123
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by zappafile123

c60rider wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:16 am
You can't really complain about the price a company charges for a product. Vote with your wallet. I'm delighted at my NG but now they've released the NGeco the more expensive NG probably doesn't make sense for most. People buy SRM Campag at even more cost but I'm not going to complain at them about that I personally can't justify paying that but if you can then I'm fine with that. Just don't buy it if you don't like the price. :noidea:
You're right, I can't complain. The annoyance is more motivated by the contrast between before vs. after pricing. I'd consider the Campy Eco, but by the looks of things P2M dont offer it in Australia. From my perspective purchasing an SRM is irrational - its paying for appearances rather than substance.
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c60rider
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by c60rider

zappafile123 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:43 am
c60rider wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:16 am
You can't really complain about the price a company charges for a product. Vote with your wallet. I'm delighted at my NG but now they've released the NGeco the more expensive NG probably doesn't make sense for most. People buy SRM Campag at even more cost but I'm not going to complain at them about that I personally can't justify paying that but if you can then I'm fine with that. Just don't buy it if you don't like the price. :noidea:
You're right, I can't complain. The annoyance is more motivated by the contrast between before vs. after pricing. I'd consider the Campy Eco, but by the looks of things P2M dont offer it in Australia. From my perspective purchasing an SRM is irrational - its paying for appearances rather than substance.
Completely with you on SRM but each to their own. Have you emailed P2M when I've contacted them they've been super quick and helpful to answer. Doesn't make any sense them not selling the eco in a market if they sell existing PMs.

ParisCarbon
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by ParisCarbon

glam2deaf wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:53 am
Looking at the SRM webiste now, the Campagnolo option is still showing. But also looking at thier website everything they are providing is modular. I would say that now they have the Origin their interest in models that require special arms is fairly low.
When you click on the actual order from USA shop it dies... the international site after does not have it either... you are right on the modular.. soon it will be the origin model and thats all, and the pedal system...

Geoff
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by Geoff

@zappafile123, I am sorry to hear of the erxperiences that you may have had with SRM. I am lucky to have a friend that has been involved with SRM for many decades, so my experience is definitely not typical. I can say, however, that notwithstanding your experience with SRMs service groups, the product itself is very high-quality. I have been on SRM since 1999 and can attest to the longevity of the system and the basic design principles used. The SRM will give you very good service for a great many years to come.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

zappafile123 wrote:From my perspective purchasing an SRM is irrational - its paying for appearances rather than substance.
Fair enough, but the substance is actually there and has stood the test of time and keeps standing. The super clean looks and appearance is a bonus. Some people will pay for that, others won’t. It’s a free market. My first SRM Campy purchase was definitely an eye, and wallet opener. But I never regretted it for a second, hence I kept going back. I had a Powertap prior to switching. Will be interesting to see what 12sp Campy solution they come up with, if any (aside from the pedals). Don’t think I could forego the factory function of the actual new 12sp Campy cranks to go along with the group if I were to get one. And I also happen to think the new 12sp stuff is quite gorgeous, although I still haven’t seen it in the flesh yet. So I don’t think I’d want their generic Origin crank either.
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neeb
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by neeb

zappafile123 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:19 am
Also I'd like to complain about power2max. Their Type-S PM was competitively priced and functioned perfectly ($1999). The NG version, OTH comfortably pushes into the territory of being too expensive. A new Campagnolo NG power meter is 2599aud. Why would you buy this when you could get something or roughly equal quality like a Quarq for $1000 less (and even less if you work in the industry)?
NG is (supposedly) twice as accurate as the Type-S and Eco (1% rather than 2%), and 50% more accurate than the Quarq. That's all-important if you want to track fitness changes from one month to the next - 2% is around 5w at FTP which represents a significant fitness difference. I don't know if the NG really IS twice as accurate, but if it is (or even 50% more accurate) that's worth the extra cash.

I have the NG and claimed accuracy was a major factor in the choice. I'm very happy with it which is just one of many reasons why I won't be going to 12 speed any time soon. It really ticks none of my boxes - heavy, very limited range of gearing options both of which are too wide for me, and while I quite like the look of the rest of the group that RD is just hideous! Rear derailleurs should be compact and jewel-like, not sprawling and industrial. I can't help getting the feeling that Campagnolo are saving on manufacturing costs with these new groups at the same time as hiking the prices. Less titanium, less refined finishing (no 3k carbon weave), fewer options, considerably heavier.. I see no advantages whatsoever other than the claimed incremental shifting/performance improvements, but I would imagine that these are very minor - current 11sp is highly refined thanks to 10 years of tweaking.

c60rider
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by c60rider

The RD is much nicer looking in person than it looks on almost every picture I've seen. Pictures make it look a bit odd in some ways but that's deceptive. I think the post 2015 SR RD was a step back looks wise compared with the clean looking shape of pre 2015


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