PF30 Alu cups/ti frame-609 or antiseize?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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glepore
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by glepore

I installed a used wheels pf30bb in a ti frame recently, and stupidly, as I'm about to pull and replace it due to an audible "click" under heavy load from the ds at the dead bottom of the stroke. I've checked crank, spider, crankbolts etc. I have a new wheels pf30 enroute. The current install followed their instructions of antiseize ( and they specifically state "DO NOT use any brand bearing retaining compound...") . I'd much rather use 609, but I'm concerned about galvanic corrosion down the road. Is 609 sufficiently isolating for this purpose? Has anyone successfully removed cups from a ti frame after using 609? I know Cal likes 609 as much as I do, but can/should I ignore Wheel's advice.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Cannondale SS Evo Di2 7970 (5.79); Willier Cento Uno Air Di2 9070 (7.0); C40 Mk2 DA 7800 ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

by Weenie


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Calnago
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by Calnago

I don't like to ignore a manufacturer's advice unless I understand both the reasons why they are giving it, and the possible consequences of ingnoring it, and then I'll make a decision if it's ok or not. I've never used retaining compound on a ti frame (they've all been threaded and I've just used copper based antiseize). But I wouldn't be averse to it myself since I can't see the problem, but use the primer as well, since ti is an "inactive substrate" and you'll need the primer to get the 609 to bond. A call to Wheels Mfg might be in order just to ask why the warning.
But first, what cranks are you using? If it's a Campy install, with one audible click every rotation, I'm wondering if it might be the drive side bearing is "hitting" the edges of the C-clip once every rotation. That can happen when the cups are worn and a bit of extra play will allow the cranks to take up the built in 0.2mm or so of gap between the bearing and the C-clip when all is good. The wavy washer is pretty good at maintaining the preload and the tolerances of the bearings and Campy cups are so good that lateral movement of the crank is essentially a non issue, but if there is some play, then there can be just enough lateral movment to cause that click.
Try this, if it's Campy. Give a good sudden press laterally against your non drive side crank at the spindle, as if you are trying to push the whole thing out the drive side. You should get about 0.2mm of movement and hear a "click". That's the bearing stopping against the C-clip on the drive side (it's there to prevent any more thatn 0.2mm of movement). If it's really easy to push it and get that click, then the issue may be worn cups, and/or bearings, and have nothign to do with the BB shell/pressfit interface.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

glepore
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by glepore

Thanks Cal. Its a bb30 quarq using force crankarms with the preload adjuster. I'll check again carefully for interference but I don't think so. I had mounted the spider on these arms and went so far as to remome , 609 the spider and retorqe the bolts. Suspect the bb may have been damaged on removal but it felt ok.
I do like the wheels radial, have them in a Cannodale and they've been dead silent for 2 seasons. I don't tear up bb's though as I'm small and have a low max power.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Cannondale SS Evo Di2 7970 (5.79); Willier Cento Uno Air Di2 9070 (7.0); C40 Mk2 DA 7800 ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Ok, well, it’s not the Campy clip then. But now that you mention spider, that could be it. Once removed a PF30 BB that I had previously installed with 609 because of creaking. First and only one that seemed to develop a creak after I installed it. On removal, it didn’t seem like it was at all loose, in fact it does take quite a blow to break the bond from the retaining compound. So, after a reinstall, the click was still there. Damnit. Turned out to be exactly that, the spider had come loose and it wasn’t the BB at all. On the one hand I was happy that the install was solid, but on the other hand I felt stupid for not checking the spider first. But these days it’s almost second nature that when you hear a noise from down there, it’s likely the BB. Unless... it’s a once a revolution kind of thing, like clockwork. Then I’ll check for worn cups (as above if a Campy install), or a loose spider, especially if it’s a Cannondale Hollowgram crankset.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

RyanH
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by RyanH

I had clicking with my CK Bottom Bracket and copper antiseize on my Litespeed. I did 609 with the THM BB but since it threads together, it was probably unnecessary and if Cal is correct, may not be doing anything since I didn't use primer.

For Quarq, clicking was most often in the spider.
Strava
Current Stable. The Snob Machine
The Ex's. LS Siena: 6.21kg | Parlee Z5 SLi: 5.9kg | LS Xicon: 5.76kg | C59: 5.7kg | Cervelo R5ca: 5.09kg | Fuji Altamira SE - 6.2kg | Scott Foil - 6.2kg | Evo - 5.18kg | LS Classic - 6.7kg | The Crumpton - 5.9kg

glepore
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by glepore

Thanks Ryan, appreciate the input. We'll see tomorrow, I haven't done the bb yet but while flexing it on the shop floor by putting body weight thru my arm on the ds pedal it made a loud click once and then couldn't get it to repeat. I think something shifted. The crap weather here in the east will ease tomorrow, and the downed stuff should be clear enough to allow a safe ride.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Cannondale SS Evo Di2 7970 (5.79); Willier Cento Uno Air Di2 9070 (7.0); C40 Mk2 DA 7800 ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

glepore
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by glepore

double
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Cannondale SS Evo Di2 7970 (5.79); Willier Cento Uno Air Di2 9070 (7.0); C40 Mk2 DA 7800 ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

RyanH
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by RyanH

Try pushing on the pedals alternative nds and ds to see if you can get the click to come back. That would be BB at that point. Does your wheels BB thread together? If it's tight it shouldn't move at all and I think neither antiseize or loctite should make a difference. At that point it may be the bearings in the cups...which are... Pressed in...
Strava
Current Stable. The Snob Machine
The Ex's. LS Siena: 6.21kg | Parlee Z5 SLi: 5.9kg | LS Xicon: 5.76kg | C59: 5.7kg | Cervelo R5ca: 5.09kg | Fuji Altamira SE - 6.2kg | Scott Foil - 6.2kg | Evo - 5.18kg | LS Classic - 6.7kg | The Crumpton - 5.9kg

numberSix
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by numberSix

IME this click is almost always side play, and not enough grease filling the gap between the spindle and bearing inner races.

Waterproof grease, preferably thickened with micro-balloons, and re-adjusting the Sram preload ring after a few rides should do it.

glepore
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by glepore

They are the angular contact bearings, and I'm thinking that perhaps this is the issue-they like quite a bit of preload, maybe more than I can establish with the normal setup (bearing cover ds, 12mm spacer nds) and if it returns I'll add a spacer to the ds. Its a standard wheels bb-not the threaded one.
Good idea on the grease, its got quite a bit of thick automotive hitemp on the spindle but will keep after the preload.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Cannondale SS Evo Di2 7970 (5.79); Willier Cento Uno Air Di2 9070 (7.0); C40 Mk2 DA 7800 ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

numberSix
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by numberSix

Grease: since the spindle slides in from one side (nds), most of the grease gets scraped off on the first bearing. So greasing the inner races before putting the spindle through helps make sure the drive side isn’t metal on metal. Also the thickener (microballoons) helps the grease stay put and fill the tolerance gap.

Angular bearings: I’m also using the Wheels bearings, great product and I agree they seem to need a bit more preload.

Sram/Quarq preload ring: when the locking screw is loosened and the ring gap opened, the ring can skip on the threaded collar. Turning the ring seems like preload is being added but it isn’t. So I wind up loosening the lock screw, freeing the lockring, then lightly tightening the lockscrew so the ring threads are engaged but free to turn.

by Weenie


glepore
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Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:42 pm
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by glepore

Thanks for all the advice. Its fine after a 2 hr ride today with some climbs. I suspect it was at the pedal interface - I had neglected to grease them first time in, duh-however the advice on the preload ring is excellent, yes it will skip/spin. I pulled and reinstalled the cranks last eve again and whatever it was, its gone. Its not the cups then, and they were installed with anitseize, which would have been my preference to leave.

As to angular bearings, I really like them. I've had them on the supersix for almost 3 seasons now without having any issue whasoever, crank just spins. I know Enduro bearings get a bad rap in some corners, but I really like this product.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Cannondale SS Evo Di2 7970 (5.79); Willier Cento Uno Air Di2 9070 (7.0); C40 Mk2 DA 7800 ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

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