Help me find a modern *steel* road frame

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
pdlpsher1
Posts: 1484
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

I recently had a custom Ti frame built using DM brakes. I used a Trek Domane fork (awesome fork at a great price) with DM brake bosses. If your framebuilder has never done DM brake bosses there are a couple minor details he needs to know about. PM me when you are ready to start the project. Good luck.

by Weenie


shimmeD
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:52 pm
Location: eNZed

by shimmeD

When you go off-the-rack steel, you're forgoing one of the major reasons when choosing steel and ie custom.
When I see you mention Ritchey logic (which is not light light steel) I see good pricing and I think less known builders. Tonic Fabrication comes to mind and they look stiff, and then I also see new builders especially via NAHBS. This year Porter caught my eye.
I'm absolutely stoked with my English (the wait might kill you!)
Less is more.

cassard
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:31 am

by cassard

Stinner Gibraltar

the geometry is a good in between, not like a Specialized tarmac or BMC Team machine, but still race.

If you like the stock colors and the Geo you won't have to much time to spend sending email. Direct mount brakes I'm not sure, but internal cable they do (brakes and cables) and stock BB is threaded. Price is good and the weight is good (my Gibraltar Disc goes at 1450-1500g)

AlexMeeshell
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:37 pm

by AlexMeeshell

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:29 pm
I recently had a custom Ti frame built using DM brakes. I used a Trek Domane fork (awesome fork at a great price) with DM brake bosses. If your framebuilder has never done DM brake bosses there are a couple minor details he needs to know about. PM me when you are ready to start the project. Good luck.
Thanks for the head's up.
To be clear, we are talking rim, as opposed to disk DM, right?
From a construction point of view, I'd imagine the process is similar to brazing cantilever brake bosses - and by similar, I mean opposite, right?
Smart move on the Trek fork, btw.

AlexMeeshell
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:37 pm

by AlexMeeshell

shimmeD wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:31 pm
When you go off-the-rack steel, you're forgoing one of the major reasons when choosing steel and ie custom.
When I see you mention Ritchey logic (which is not light light steel) I see good pricing and I think less known builders. Tonic Fabrication comes to mind and they look stiff, and then I also see new builders especially via NAHBS. This year Porter caught my eye.
I'm absolutely stoked with my English (the wait might kill you!)
English! Yeah, someday. But that day is not now.
Someone much wiser than me once said that getting custom right on the first round is not a given. This will be my first foray into “modern steel” (for lack of a better label), and there are many dials on the mixing board. I'd like to figure things out for myself before committing to full custom, hence the inclination to the Ritchey, even if weight is stacked against it.
Will check out your reccommendations. But so far, those Stebels... so hot right now!

AlexMeeshell
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:37 pm

by AlexMeeshell

cassard wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:24 am
Stinner Gibraltar

the geometry is a good in between, not like a Specialized tarmac or BMC Team machine, but still race.

If you like the stock colors and the Geo you won't have to much time to spend sending email. Direct mount brakes I'm not sure, but internal cable they do (brakes and cables) and stock BB is threaded. Price is good and the weight is good (my Gibraltar Disc goes at 1450-1500g)
Had not considered Stinner.
Will check them out.
Thanks!

shimmeD
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:52 pm
Location: eNZed

by shimmeD

I like the Stelbels too.
You can custom as little as you want eg get the builder to copy the geometery of your favourite ex or current and add in those features that you want like your DM brakes, cables routed internally, hell you could even get built both rear disc mounts and rim mounts on chainstays, etc.
Less is more.

pdlpsher1
Posts: 1484
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

AlexMeeshell wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:29 pm
I recently had a custom Ti frame built using DM brakes. I used a Trek Domane fork (awesome fork at a great price) with DM brake bosses. If your framebuilder has never done DM brake bosses there are a couple minor details he needs to know about. PM me when you are ready to start the project. Good luck.
Thanks for the head's up.
To be clear, we are talking rim, as opposed to disk DM, right?
From a construction point of view, I'd imagine the process is similar to brazing cantilever brake bosses - and by similar, I mean opposite, right?
Smart move on the Trek fork, btw.
Yes, DM rim brakes. The design of the seat stays and the location of the bosses are critical. The seatstays need to be wide or have indents so the brake pads will clear the stays when you open the brakes. Because the brakes are so close to the stays. And the bosses need to be as high as possible to maximize tire clearance. When properly designed the brakes will clear a 32mm tire. When not properly designed you’ll get something like a 28mm clearance. You want to maximize clearance in case you run wide tires in the future.


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mattyNor
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:18 pm

by mattyNor

KarlC wrote:These may not meet all of your wants but they sure are nice..... http://stelbel.it/en/

SB/03
Image

RODANO
Image
Stelbel is really good about customizing, might be worth asking if they'll do direct mount

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Sammutd88
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:14 am

by Sammutd88

Curve Cycling here do a nice selection of frames mostly in titanium but a couple in steel.

Marin
Posts: 2696
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

I designed a few titanium frames and I'm having a custom steel frame built currently. Used to own a Ritchey Logic too:

Image


Here are a few thoughts:
* Direct mount brakes are not necessary. Current-gen standard brakes *with good pads* have more then adequate stopping power. Most regular brakes are basically identical, the standard mount versions just include a brace at the rear that has the 2 mounts that you'd otherwise place on the frame. You really want to weld 2 steel studs to a frame where a simple hole would be enough?

* Current Shimano brakes should clear 30mm tires, no matter which mount. My Logic cleared 30mm in the rear already (Sram brakes), but the old fork didn't. I think the new one does.

* You won't get significantly ligher than the Ritchey Logic. It's 1750g, but uses an IS headset, saving you 70g of headset cups. The lightest steel frames might come in 150g under that, but will have to use oversize tubes and might be pretty harsh.

* Internal cables will make the bike quite a bit heavier as you'll have full internal tubing and will need to run full housing through them. Run the rear brake internally if you must, but keep the shift cables external.

* My Logic build came in around 7.1kg with pedals. I had no problem on fast group rides and set a few PRs and KOMs on it, even though my carbon bike is more than a kilo lighter. I also did a lot of gravel riding using a stronger wheelset.

* If you go custom, consider using mid-reach brakes, then you can have clearance for up to 35mm. This is how I spec my bikes.

* My suggestion would be to get a Ritchey or smiliar affordable frame and get a feel for steel before you go custom. I sold my Ritchey and ride mostly Ti now, but I need a steel bike again so I'm having something built :)

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ALAN Carbon+
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:21 am
Location: Canberra, Australia

by ALAN Carbon+

I went through the same search about 18 months ago and ended up with Genesis Volare 931, which is also available with Reynolds 853.

Otherwise Condor Acciaio/Super Acciaio or Dedacciai Strada Zero 25 are worth considering assuming the geometry works for you.

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wingguy
Posts: 3747
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

AlexMeeshell wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:16 am
Thanks for the head's up.
To be clear, we are talking rim, as opposed to disk DM, right?
DM is only a rim brake mounting standard. The disc standard you’re thinking of is called Flat Mount. There’s no reason for the two to ever be confused, the names are different.

And I think you’ll struggle to find any steel builders adopting DM as their stock setup. Something about the clean lines of a steel seatstay just seems aesthetically incompatible with DM bosses.

AlexMeeshell
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:37 pm

by AlexMeeshell

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:25 am
AlexMeeshell wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:29 pm
I recently had a custom Ti frame built using DM brakes. I used a Trek Domane fork (awesome fork at a great price) with DM brake bosses. If your framebuilder has never done DM brake bosses there are a couple minor details he needs to know about. PM me when you are ready to start the project. Good luck.
Thanks for the head's up.
To be clear, we are talking rim, as opposed to disk DM, right?
From a construction point of view, I'd imagine the process is similar to brazing cantilever brake bosses - and by similar, I mean opposite, right?
Smart move on the Trek fork, btw.
Yes, DM rim brakes. The design of the seat stays and the location of the bosses are critical. The seatstays need to be wide or have indents so the brake pads will clear the stays when you open the brakes. Because the brakes are so close to the stays. And the bosses need to be as high as possible to maximize tire clearance. When properly designed the brakes will clear a 32mm tire. When not properly designed you’ll get something like a 28mm clearance. You want to maximize clearance in case you run wide tires in the future.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for the intel.
Had not considered the above, which probably also explains why I can't find an off the shelf steel frame compatible with DM brakes. Word on the street is eeBrakes clear 30 mm tires. Now if the frame and fork on the Ritchet Road Logic clear said tires, I'm thinking DM brakes are moot.
But to satisfy my curiosity, would you mind posting a picture of you brake setup (frame and fork)?

by Weenie


AlexMeeshell
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:37 pm

by AlexMeeshell

Marin wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:31 am
I designed a few titanium frames and I'm having a custom steel frame built currently. Used to own a Ritchey Logic too:

Image


Here are a few thoughts:
* Direct mount brakes are not necessary. Current-gen standard brakes *with good pads* have more then adequate stopping power. Most regular brakes are basically identical, the standard mount versions just include a brace at the rear that has the 2 mounts that you'd otherwise place on the frame. You really want to weld 2 steel studs to a frame where a simple hole would be enough?

* Current Shimano brakes should clear 30mm tires, no matter which mount. My Logic cleared 30mm in the rear already (Sram brakes), but the old fork didn't. I think the new one does.

* You won't get significantly ligher than the Ritchey Logic. It's 1750g, but uses an IS headset, saving you 70g of headset cups. The lightest steel frames might come in 150g under that, but will have to use oversize tubes and might be pretty harsh.

* Internal cables will make the bike quite a bit heavier as you'll have full internal tubing and will need to run full housing through them. Run the rear brake internally if you must, but keep the shift cables external.

* My Logic build came in around 7.1kg with pedals. I had no problem on fast group rides and set a few PRs and KOMs on it, even though my carbon bike is more than a kilo lighter. I also did a lot of gravel riding using a stronger wheelset.

* If you go custom, consider using mid-reach brakes, then you can have clearance for up to 35mm. This is how I spec my bikes.

* My suggestion would be to get a Ritchey or smiliar affordable frame and get a feel for steel before you go custom. I sold my Ritchey and ride mostly Ti now, but I need a steel bike again so I'm having something built :)
Some very solid arguments here.
In the interest of transparency, that very picture, of that very bike, is what sparked this conversation, when I first saw it several months ago!
I can tell you have weighed your options.
Mind confirming what frame size allowed you to hit 7.1 Kg? I'd be a 57 cm.
I did suss out mi-reach brake calipers, but they tend to be ugly, bulky and heavy (compared to say, DM eeBrakes). I'm vain like that.
Heavily leaning towards Di2, which would require internal shift cables.
eTap on a Road Logic would just leave unused bosses, which I consider to be a bigger eyesore thant mid-read brakes. Again, vanity!
That being said, leaning heavily towards Road Logic. Or Stebel. Arg!

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