Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
morganb
Posts: 616
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:30 pm

by morganb

You never know what will be coming in the materials pipeline. Carbon, or at least carbon fibers with similar resins to currently being used could be an outdated material in 20 years if they make something that has a substantially better stiffness/strength to weight ratio.

by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Lelandjt wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:36 pm

But what you're saying here is you think bikes in a few years (that we assume will all have discs) will be nearly as light and as aero as bikes today (with rim brakes). Which would be a great thing to have better braking during the occasional time that matters with essentially the same performance the rest of the time. But can you imagine future bikes actually getting lighter and more aero than what we have now? I honestly can't.
Yes future bikes will be more aero and lighter. That is a guarantee. The double triangle is a UCI contrivance. Seatstays are borderline decorative features on modern bikes. Top tubes don’t bear all that much load either. You get rid of those a la P5x and you gain several watts. You add a cowl/fender over the top of your front wheel and you gain several watts. You add tiny vanes to smoothly direct air away from structures that disrupt airflow, you gain several watts.

Carbon/CFRP is not as light as we can get it. It also isn’t going to be the end-all in composite building material.

Shrike
Posts: 1401
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

Yeah you can keep changing the materials but you won't improve speed much. Thats why I'm not convinced that material sciences for frames are that interesting for cycling in the long term.

Would most of us love a robust 5kg disc brake aero build? Yes of course. Dreamy. But it's not going to be that much quicker than what we've got today. Maybe get a minute out of it on a big climb compared to an modern aero bike at 7kg. Other rolling terrains or flat routes? Lucky to scrape a handful of seconds.

Either bikes get fairings or they get AI-driven infiinite gearing. Think ERG mode for the road, but better, you're being paced by your FTP and other metrics on that particular ride at that particular day on those particular conditions.

Can't think of anything other than those two that will genuinely produce significant improvements over current gen tech. The whole drivetrain concept we use today is woefully dated. It's an abhorrence in many ways. We need some sort of magnetic resistance. Some leap in tech to make it happen.

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

The leap in tech you’re thinking of is induction, storing the energy in a battery or super capacitor and powering an electric motor. :p

Shrike
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

I wouldn't say I'm quite ready yet, but I am at least prepared to acknowledge that I may have to undergo a paradigm shift when it comes to my thinking on eBikes (or any other type of power assisted bike, whatever it'd be called).

Perhaps they are the future and whether or not there's much progress left with regular bikes is somewhat moot (yes those improvements are transferable to eBikes, but no they wouldn't be significant compared to eBike tech itself).

I could live with the thinking that I would still be training, doing my watts, seeing my watts, but just going faster for those watts than normal due to assisted power. Hate that word assisted. Makes me feel like an invalid.

I'd need some proper marketing magic to get used to the idea. But going faster is a winner for sure.

Stickman
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:58 am

by Stickman

Lelandjt wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:36 pm
...can you imagine future bikes actually getting lighter and more aero than what we have now? I honestly can't.
No industry can afford to rest on its laurels. If one manufacturer doesn't invest in R&D, they will get left behind. Every manufacturer in every industry that wants to succeed needs to come up with new ideas. Why would you think the bike industry is just going to stop dead in its tracks?

Graphene could potentially lead to lighter bikes frames that don't sacrifice strength. If the UCI drops the 6.8kg weight limit, who knows what sort of tech will be invented.

I think bikes "types" will merge. Lightweight, aero, comfort - these are incorporating more of each others features. The new Tarmac is as aero as the previous Venge. This year's lightweight climbing bike is as comfortable as last model's endurance bike. Etc etc.

Broady
Posts: 306
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:02 pm

by Broady

I wish someone would commit some serious money into a gearbox.

A refined, drag free, lightweight box with a large range, wireless shifting, practically maintenence free. Perfect chainline, nothing to get damaged in a crash, low centred weight.

I guess the main problem for a manufacturer with a bombproof system is that you don't sell as many. Suppose there's always Rohloff.

Bordcla
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:42 pm

by Bordcla

On the weight and aero side, come think of it, there aren't all that many improvements to be made. There's only a max of about 15 lbs to be shaved off of the system weight, and considering that the frame accounts for much less than 5% of the total rider/bike system, even if it were to disappear from the wind completely, the impact would still be small.

If big improvements are in store, it would have to be in other areas or in a combination of different areas in order to be considered material.

dcorn
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:21 pm
Location: NoVA

by dcorn

AJS914 wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:37 am
You don't need infinite gearing. An AI could be set up to shift electronic groupsets.
It's not about shifting all the time, it's about the number of gears that we can physically fit onto a bike. If a rider can stay in his optimum cadence to produce the highest power with least fatigue, he'll be more efficient and faster. Same reason car transmissions keep getting more gears and some have moved to CVTs. Keep the engine in the powerband as much as possible.

I think pro cyclists have overcome this problem with fitness and power. The guys can just run smaller gears because they are insanely strong. If gearing was optimized and the gear range wider (without a weight penalty), they could probably be even faster.

mattr
Posts: 3910
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

Broady wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:46 pm
A refined, drag free, lightweight box with a large range, wireless shifting, practically maintenence free. Perfect chainline, nothing to get damaged in a crash, low centred weight.

I guess the main problem for a manufacturer with a bombproof system is that you don't sell as many. Suppose there's always Rohloff.
The *main* problem is that we'd have to adjust some of the laws of physics first. Drag free, lightweight AND maintenance free isn't going to happen.
Lots of patents and demonstrators floating around, they never come to anything.
dcorn wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:50 pm
Keep the engine in the powerband as much as possible.
There is even talk of using different cycles in the engine to further optimise. Otto and it's derivatives are only going to take us so far.

Shrike
Posts: 1401
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

Yeah, the gearing would definitely need to be infinite to come close to fully realising human powered potential on roads. The AI wouldn't simply be changing gear for you, we already have auto gear changing for bikes. That's been out for over a year. It needs to make micro adjustments in relation to your power/gradient and a lot of other constantly evolving metrics.

pdlpsher1
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Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

I believe the next big step is having a motor on the bike. A lot of people will resist it but eventually they will cave in. The technologies on batteries and motors will improve to the point that there will be mass adoption at some point. It's a scary thought isn't it.

dcorn
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:21 pm
Location: NoVA

by dcorn

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:40 pm
I believe the next big step is having a motor on the bike. A lot of people will resist it but eventually they will cave in. The technologies on batteries and motors will improve to the point that there will be mass adoption at some point. It's a scary thought isn't it.
That's called a moped or motorcycle. In my mind, it's pointless to start racing e-bikes because if everyone has the same power-assist, it still comes down to how much power the rider can put out compared to the competitors. So the only reason to have the assist is to increase the speed of the race, which just adds danger.

Race bicycles, race motorcycles. Start an electric version of motocross or motoGP like Formula E has done with car racing. But there is no reason to combine electric power and human power in one racing series.


Unless I'm commuting, I'll have no reason to ever buy a bike with a motor. I bike for exercise, fun, and a little competition with friends. If I want to get somewhere quickly and efficiently, I'll just buy a motorcycle or scooter or whatever. Why do I even need to pedal if it's just for transportation?

XCProMD
Posts: 636
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

morganb wrote:You never know what will be coming in the materials pipeline. Carbon, or at least carbon fibers with similar resins to currently being used could be an outdated material in 20 years if they make something that has a substantially better stiffness/strength to weight ratio.
Don’t hold your breath. Physics are stubborn.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

by Weenie


AJS914
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I could totally see having a bit of assist on board and using it to enhance rides. For example, say your aren't in shape for an epic 60 miles with 5,000 ft of climbing. With some assist you might go out and do that ride much more often. Maybe there are a few painful hills in your area which means you avoiding them or not riding - no problem with some assist. Or you are 70 and can't keep up with 30 year olds but aren't ready to hang it up.

Sure, at some point you might as well be riding a motorcycle and we'll debate that in the future more than we debate the benefits of electronic groupsets, disc brakes, or aero frames.

Edit: it doesn't make sense for professional racers but there's no reason there couldn't be an assist category in some races though standardizing assist to make it fair introduces many other complications.

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