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Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:59 am
by UpFromOne
The line was crossed with electronic shifting and mini computers.
Pro Cycling is already heading down that slippery slope, paved with tech, computers, software, monitoring equipment, and other PEDDs (Performance Enhancing Digital Devices). Auto shifting, AI inputs, on-board graphics, brain wave tuning, IV hookups, etc. are all possible on the road. The coming tech will be like riding with a combination of a coach, trainer, soigneur, psychologist, plus a rack of inhalers and super EPO shots that completely disappear after an hour. And UCI won't have the backbone to ban it, because all they really care about is the almighty Euro.

Call me a luddite, but many sports are now bordering on digital doping.
Wanting the best athlete to be the winner is reduced to mere lip service.

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:59 am
by Weenie

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:06 am
by Lelandjt
wheelbuilder wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:59 am
I'm very happy with the performance of my bike........could not ask for more. It's got all the high end components I lusted after, and is what most would consider a damn nice bike. I feel pretty damn satisfied. Rim brakes and all.
This is how I feel despite my bike being two years old and slightly constrained by budget (no Lightweight wheels, Berk saddle/post, or Clavicula crank). Which is a little weird cuz it's the first time in my life that I haven't lusted after the new stuff. Every new generation of Dura-ace felt like such a big improvement until this last one. Framesets were getting lighter and more aero, until two years ago. Wheels were getting lighter, more aero, and less affected by crosswinds but that progress seems to have hit a limit. On the one hand I'm totally content cuz I love my bike and don't feel like I'm riding outdated gear. On the other hand I miss getting excited about new stuff.

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:21 am
by hogehoge
Lelandjt wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:06 am
.... Every new generation of Dura-ace felt like such a big improvement until this last one. ...
Even 7800 to 7900? apart from hiding the shift cables and slightly better braking, 7900 was mostly a step back in terms of shift quality, ergnomics, lack of front trim, only two shifts in a single throw.

In 9100, there is a power meter, disc brakes, improved rim brakes, wider range cassettes, bluettooth connectivity.

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:57 am
by Broady
What we thinking for Dura Ace 10000? Gotta be wireless surely? Big number, big technological leap.

And yeah, 7800 was sublime!

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:32 am
by Lelandjt
hogehoge wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:21 am
In 9100, there is a power meter, disc brakes, improved rim brakes, wider range cassettes, bluettooth connectivity.
Don't use power meter.
Don't use disc brakes.
Can't tell a difference with the new rim brakes.
Don't use low gears.
Don't use Bluetooth.

The 9000-9100 change catered to people wanting big cassettes and disc brakes with some buffing of Di2. For anyone running mechanical rim brakes it's the same group in a different color.
Yes, 7800-7900 was also pretty minor but hiding the shift cables was a big aesthetic step. I have big hands, don't trim, don't shift more than 2 gears, and keep my drivetrain and cables pretty fresh so I didn't notice the downsides of 7900 vs 7800.

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:50 am
by TobinHatesYou
Broady wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:57 am
What we thinking for Dura Ace 10000? Gotta be wireless surely? Big number, big technological leap.

And yeah, 7800 was sublime!
One of the reasons why FSA WE has a wire connecting the front and rear derailleur is because SRAM has patents for physically attaching batteries to the structure/housing of a derailleur. This is why Shimano and Campagnolo cannot go fully wireless either. They will have to stick to their detached battery design until SRAM’s patent expires or someone can claim prior art.

Also we won’t be seeing DA 10000 as a moniker. The next version will be 9200...

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:30 pm
by Broady
Interesting, I feel like the ability to patent putting a battery on something powered externally is a bit excessive. I'm not a patent lawyer though.

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:18 pm
by mattr
Broady wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:30 pm
I'm not a patent lawyer though.
I wouldn't worry, I'm pretty sure most of the people doing patent law in the US aren't patent lawyers either.
But, in the long run, it's easier (and cheaper) to just toe the line than risk the fall out of not being able to trade in the US.

Unless you have pockets as deep as Samsung.

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:20 pm
by bilwit
It's still pretty hard to get "stock" bikes down to 6.8kg without getting into the boutique componentry. I think once something like graphene becomes affordable (or whatever else is created in the future that's a better alternative to straight up carbon fibre), normal road bikes will start to look like TT frames -- we're already headed that direction with aero bikes, the weight issue is the only thing that's stopping them from taking over completely.

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:20 pm
by stockae92
I am so glad I can care less about what the pro will ride in the peloton (regarding disc or not).

As long as they make a good bike with disc brake at my price range, my next bike is going to have disc brake. My big fat a$$ is the biggest aero drag anyway. LOL

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:14 pm
by Digger90
I posted this in another thread, but it's appropriate here too....

As someone has pointed out - in a shocking turn of events, and seemingly against all odds, the winners of both Omloop Het Nieuwsblad and Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne, and indeed ALL the front runners in both races, seemed to do just fine using quaint, old skool, outdated, rim brake technology.

How on Earth did they manage to not crash and die? It beggars belief.
:shock:

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:06 am
by Stickman
Why all this talk of aero penalties from disc brakes? The tests I've watched repeatedly state the drag "penalty" is about 1 watt at ~40km/h. That's hardly worth caring about.

Weight is a different matter though. But look how quickly frame weights have dropped. The first gen carbon road disc frames had maybe a 200g weight penalty? Current gen disc frames may now only be 30-70g heavier.
I imagine disc brake systems will continue to get lighter and lighter, I give it 5 years and the total system weight of a disc bike will be within 200g of a current rim brake equivalent. And will continue to get lighter, with typical financial WW diminishing returns.

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:14 am
by TobinHatesYou
Stickman wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:06 am
Why all this talk of aero penalties from disc brakes? The tests I've watched repeatedly state the drag "penalty" is about 1 watt at ~40km/h. That's hardly worth caring about.

Weight is a different matter though. But look how quickly frame weights have dropped. The first gen carbon road disc frames had maybe a 200g weight penalty? Current gen disc frames may now only be 30-70g heavier.
I imagine disc brake systems will continue to get lighter and lighter, I give it 5 years and the total system weight of a disc bike will be within 200g of a current rim brake equivalent. And will continue to get lighter, with typical financial WW diminishing returns.
There very likely won't be rim-brake equivalents of the latest aero and endurance frames at all after the next update cycle. There will probably be a few rim-brake Emondas, Tarmacs, SuperSixes, etc., though I'm not sure they will be offered in the highest-end configurations. They might only be available as framesets for the "Never Discs" crowd.

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:41 am
by jih
UpFromOne wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:59 am
The line was crossed with electronic shifting and mini computers.
Race radio as a technology had MUCH more impact on racing than either of these.

Electronic shifting is replacing information transfered by pull a wire inside another wire, with information transfered by pushing electrons down a wire (or the EM field for SRAM). It's not that big a deal.

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:41 am
by Weenie

Re: Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:36 pm
by Lelandjt
Stickman wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:06 am
Why all this talk of aero penalties from disc brakes? The tests I've watched repeatedly state the drag "penalty" is about 1 watt at ~40km/h. That's hardly worth caring about.

Weight is a different matter though. But look how quickly frame weights have dropped. The first gen carbon road disc frames had maybe a 200g weight penalty? Current gen disc frames may now only be 30-70g heavier.
I imagine disc brake systems will continue to get lighter and lighter, I give it 5 years and the total system weight of a disc bike will be within 200g of a current rim brake equivalent. And will continue to get lighter, with typical financial WW diminishing returns.
But what you're saying here is you think bikes in a few years (that we assume will all have discs) will be nearly as light and as aero as bikes today (with rim brakes). Which would be a great thing to have better braking during the occasional time that matters with essentially the same performance the rest of the time. But can you imagine future bikes actually getting lighter and more aero than what we have now? I honestly can't.