Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
aaronpass
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:32 am

by aaronpass

1. People still use rim brakes?
2. If you ride an e-bike you're not cycling, you're e-biking - which should only be used for commute/transportation purposes.
3. Bikes will weigh 5lbs in 20 years. Technology/Innovation never stops. Whether racing governing bodies allow it is another question.
4. e-bikes suck.
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by Weenie


dcorn
Posts: 150
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by dcorn

themidge wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:26 pm
aqualelaki wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:12 pm
wheelbuilder wrote:I think for me, I am at a point where I don't feel like hunting for the latest and greatest anymore? I'm in my fifties, happy with my fitness, very happy with the performance of my bike........could not ask for more. It's got all the high end components I lusted after, and is what most would consider a damn nice bike. I feel pretty damn satisfied. Rim brakes and all.
Pretty well said. I'm in the same boat as you are. I currently have 3 bikes now. Happy with all of them. I'm a technologist so reading what's new in cycling industry and so on is always interesting to me. But all I care now is keep being healthy and have time to ride my bikes.
I just turned 16 and I feel like this too! The age or supposed 'coolness' of bike parts doesn't matter to me at all. Whenever I upgrade something on my bikes it's for performance reasons (and aesthetics, of course :D ). If 'old tech' still works then why change it?

Disc brakes: Since the invention of the road bicycle, gears arrived pretty quickly on the scene didn't they? That's because they make a huge difference to what is possible on a bike. How long has it taken for disc brakes to arrive? Hmm? It's not new tech either, disc brakes (and their evolutions) have been on cars and motorbikes for decades.

E-bikes: Is not the whole point of riding a bike to enjoy going as fast (or as slow) as you like through your own effort. If you enjoy greater speed, get fitter or buy a motorbike.

Mountain biking started like 35-40 years ago and absolutely FLEW past road bike tech that has been developed for over a hundred years. You want a reason? Road cyclists are notoriously resistant to change, especially major changes. Go listen to the CyclingTips podcast on these subjects. Road riders continue to ride on narrow, high pressure tires even though science proves that wider, lower pressure tires will reduce rolling resistance. Roadies (like you) won't switch to disc brakes even though the technology is superior and has been adopted by literally every other moving vehicle with wheels and brakes. Not one other vehicle uses its wheels/rims for a braking surface.

The only thing 'cool factor' about disc brakes is the fact that they are new on road bikes. It's just better tech in every way. It weighs slightly more than rim brakes in a day where road bikes weigh as little as 10 lbs. The aero difference is negligible (<10 watts over 40km? rounding error). The cutting danger is an absolute myth. It's basically just riders being resistant to such a big change and also not wanting to replace bikes, wheelsets, roof racks, tools, etc. But discs are still new on road bikes, so it will eventually catch on and take over like it has with mountain bikes, CX, and every other type of cycling.

bilwit
Posts: 924
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

aaronpass wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:12 pm
1. People still use rim brakes?
2. If you ride an e-bike you're not cycling, you're e-biking - which should only be used for commute/transportation purposes.
3. Bikes will weigh 5lbs in 20 years. Technology/Innovation never stops. Whether racing governing bodies allow it is another question.
4. e-bikes suck.
they're trying to pass a law here that prohibits e-bikes that can "assist" 750 watts from going on trails and the uproar from e-bike users is that they need over a thousand watts to get up a 10% hill, otherwise they will be going "only 11km/h"... bike users with no concept of gearing.. hilarious :lol:

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Miller
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Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:54 pm
Location: Reading, UK

by Miller

Bikes to date have been a fairly reliable way to lose weight through the need to put in some actual physical effort. E-bikes will put paid to that benefit. Maybe e-bike riders really will need 1000w to get up a hill.

bilwit
Posts: 924
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

Miller wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:37 pm
Bikes to date have been a fairly reliable way to lose weight through the need to put in some actual physical effort. E-bikes will put paid to that benefit. Maybe e-bike riders really will need 1000w to get up a hill.
If the e-bike being used only has 1 gear with the equivalent of 50x11, adding hundreds and hundreds of more watts in order to get up a hill isn't the solution. Needing 1000w to get up a hill means that e-bike being used is severely undergeared (flawed) or is being used outside of its design specification.

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Lelandjt
Posts: 449
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:10 am

by Lelandjt

bremerradkurier wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:55 pm
pdlpsher1 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:28 pm
I'm a tandem rider here as well and we love it. Speaking of tandem and eBikes, there are some off-the-shelves tandems with motors. And many tandem teams are adding motors to their bikes and reporting back the numerous postive benefits of having a motor assist. I also wish I could have a motor on my tandem but I really don't want huge assissts. Big motors means a heavier tandem and special requirements on braking and wheels, etc.

Using myself as an example, our tandem rides range between 25mi to 50mi, with 3,000' of climbing as the ceiling for a hilly ride. Imagine if we had a motor assist....we could be doing 60mi. rides with 5,000' of climbing, and explore roads that we may never do if we didnt' have a motor. I believe I will get the same amount of workout but the benefit being that it's more fun- more roads to explore at a higher avearage speed. Instead of averaging 15 or 16mph we could average 18 or 19mph.

I know it's hard for many people at accept it but eBike is truly the next natural progression on the bicycle as we know now. Everything on an existing bike is already good enough and reaching the point of diminishing returns as we hit physical barriers on material properties/science.

Seems like regenerative braking on a descending e-tandem going to the battery pack could be advantageous as well.
That was a favorite feature when we (Santana) prototyped some e-tandems. Lots of tandem riders like to drag the rear brake on downhills so the selective amount of "engine braking" let them decend at the speed they liked and build up a significant amount of battery power. Unfortunately too much regen, like to much power production, gets the motor hot so it turns off to protect itself. No one liked a drag brake that suddenly releases itself. We never developed a system (worked with Bionix and Falco) that worked as seemlessly and consistently as we require. It's an ongoing project. Too bad all the BB mounted motors can't accept a front derailleur. A Bosch system with twin belts and a Rohloff hub is probably the best currently available setup. We can custom build one!

bremerradkurier
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:18 pm

by bremerradkurier

Lelandjt wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:56 pm
bremerradkurier wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:55 pm
pdlpsher1 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:28 pm
I'm a tandem rider here as well and we love it. Speaking of tandem and eBikes, there are some off-the-shelves tandems with motors. And many tandem teams are adding motors to their bikes and reporting back the numerous postive benefits of having a motor assist. I also wish I could have a motor on my tandem but I really don't want huge assissts. Big motors means a heavier tandem and special requirements on braking and wheels, etc.

Using myself as an example, our tandem rides range between 25mi to 50mi, with 3,000' of climbing as the ceiling for a hilly ride. Imagine if we had a motor assist....we could be doing 60mi. rides with 5,000' of climbing, and explore roads that we may never do if we didnt' have a motor. I believe I will get the same amount of workout but the benefit being that it's more fun- more roads to explore at a higher avearage speed. Instead of averaging 15 or 16mph we could average 18 or 19mph.

I know it's hard for many people at accept it but eBike is truly the next natural progression on the bicycle as we know now. Everything on an existing bike is already good enough and reaching the point of diminishing returns as we hit physical barriers on material properties/science.

Seems like regenerative braking on a descending e-tandem going to the battery pack could be advantageous as well.
That was a favorite feature when we (Santana) prototyped some e-tandems. Lots of tandem riders like to drag the rear brake on downhills so the selective amount of "engine braking" let them decend at the speed they liked and build up a significant amount of battery power. Unfortunately too much regen, like to much power production, gets the motor hot so it turns off to protect itself. No one liked a drag brake that suddenly releases itself. We never developed a system (worked with Bionix and Falco) that worked as seemlessly and consistently as we require. It's an ongoing project. Too bad all the BB mounted motors can't accept a front derailleur. A Bosch system with twin belts and a Rohloff hub is probably the best currently available setup. We can custom build one!
Fill part of the boom tube between bottom brackets with mineral oil and run a radiator hose and a circulatory pump to cool the motor before the magic smoke goes out of it?

Shrike
Posts: 1310
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

Different direction.

Modular bikes. We've seen Ritchey have a go at making a bike that you can pack for travel. What if you extend that concept to different modules for different types of riding. Also works nicely for damage repair.

I think 'modular everything' will get a push in the future after the 'smart everything' era we're in now is fully saturated. A big focus on sustainability, repairability etc will come for electronics and that'll set the scene for other industries too. Might actually be forced through legislation, we've seen some already in 2017.

Stickman
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:58 am

by Stickman

Miller wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:37 pm
Bikes to date have been a fairly reliable way to lose weight through the need to put in some actual physical effort. E-bikes will put paid to that benefit. Maybe e-bike riders really will need 1000w to get up a hill.
There is still on overall health benefit to riding an e-bike, as the typical e-bike rider would NOT ride a bike at all without the electric assistance ie elderly, unfit, overweight, injured etc. With the ebike, they will ride more distance and thus do more overall exercise, than a normal "real" bike that sits in the garage collecting dust. Light regular exercise is better than none at all. A light exercise ride to the shops on an e-bike is better than yet another car trip of <2kms.

Personally, I had years off a bike (laziness, kids, doing other hobbies), converted my old MTB with a front 200W motor and resumed commuting. I loved it so much I bought a road bike and ride that exclusively now. I've also put on my original front wheel on the MTB, put on some knobblies and am also riding trails.
And mine was a throttle style, not a pedelec, so I had all wheel drive :D But pedelecs cannot be used to simply cruise on electric power alone. Even if it's on max boost, you still need to turn your legs over to engage the motor.

The motor sits in my spare room and only gets used when I have to tow a heavy bike trailer full of gear when holidaying with my kids (dad = pack mule :mrgreen: .

I know this is WW, but e-bikes will get more people on bikes, and keep them on them as they get older. More bikes = more infrastructure and planning, better community health, greater visibility for us all etc. I love my roadie and am planning N+1 to drop 2.5kg from my current alloy beast, but I never would have bought the roadie if not for the e-bike rekindling my love of riding :)

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1763
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I thought I was in favor of eBikes (since it will get more people "riding bikes") and then today suddenly some guy appears out of nowhere behind my wheel and kinda surprised me since I was moving at a pretty good clip. I raised my pace by about 60W and got a bit of a gap for like 3 minutes, and then all of a sudden he whizzes by as soon as there's a positive grade. It was at that moment I realized it was an old man on a ebike with panniers, and now I am unreasonably upset.

AJS914
Posts: 2245
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Because he passed you?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1763
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

AJS914 wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:40 am
Because he passed you?
Lol yes. Looks like I held him off for 5min actually. Can't compete with a ~400W motor though.

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wheelbuilder
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:10 am

by wheelbuilder

Great photo. Are you always recording?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1763
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

wheelbuilder wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:11 am
Great photo. Are you always recording?
As of December after I got broadsided by a 79-year-old in a full-sized pick-up. I bought the Fly12/6 CE combo and have been using it ever since. I also grew my collection of hi-visibility clothing.

Also, for the record, I was only joking about being mad. That guy looks like he's having fun.

by Weenie


TurboKoo
Posts: 472
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:55 pm

by TurboKoo

One thing that may not have been mentioned is that with e-bikes you go faster. I would rate myself pretty fit and with e-bike I’m just faster on technical bits in the woods. Makes it really good training to ride faster through everything. Also e-bike can be used in pacing so that I’m riding behind e-bike with normal mtb. I’m sure this would work also on the road too as Tobinhatesyou basically did.
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