Bontrager Speed Stop Pro or EE Brakes DM

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

You do need them, set aside for when the C64 shows up ;) sorry no campy recommendation but I'm sure you can work out the maths.




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Calnago
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by Calnago

No... I think I'm getting my C64 fix just talking about it in my thread. It will have to do for now.
By then, maybe Campy will have decided to put a little more effort into their Direct Mounts.
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Hexsense
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by Hexsense

Can the dial compensate everything?

I mean, does the system expect brake to have linear response to cable pull? I had experience of Dura-ace 9000 brake with normal pad (not thin brake pad) lose their power on ultrawide rim by open it wide. It gain some power back changing to thinner brakepad and not open the caliper as wide. So i'm not sure about this.

If response should be linear maybe the adjuster can compensate for it.
Otherwise if two system have two different non linear moving curve i don't know how can one adjuster compensate for that.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

The shoe shims take care of width, same as On The EE. The Madone brakes do it via a more elegant screw adjustment.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Pretty sure it can compensate because of the geometry of the adjuster, etc.
Now, I can't remember which way it goes, so don't hold me to what I'm about to say 100%...
Campy and Shimano levers work differently in that one pulls more/or faster cable at the beginning of the lever pull versus the end, and vice versa if that makes sense.

Practically speaking, here's what I learned. On my Emonda rain bike with "normal" width (20mm) Nemesis rims, I used Shimano 105 brake calipers with my Campy levers. The new 105's actually had a similar geometry to the newest 9100's before the 9100's came out. I used the 105 calipers becasue I was mounting full fenders with 25mm tubular tires. The 105's had really good clearance and the inner profile fit the profile of the fenders I was using perfectly. Set it all up, rode it, and all worked perfectly acceptably. Probably not as good as had I had Campy calipers, but that just wasn't an option considering the use. I was happy.

Fast forward to when I got my Koppenberg. Again, I wanted the added clearance that the Shimano calipers afforded compared to Campy, and since it worked with the Nemesis rims, I figured I'd just use the newest 9100 std mount calipers with my Campy levers. But this time I was using new Boras, with a brake track width of 24.2mm. I just could not dial in the brakes to work acceptably. Very mushy and the levers would almost bottom out on the bars. Discovered that Campy Chorus calipers actually have a bit more clearance than either Record or Super Record, so got a set of those and installed them. All good again, except that with the Vlandererns (27mm) the rear clearance was just barely enough, and with the isospeed I could sometimes touch the tire to the brake caliper. Not a big deal since I went back to using 25's anyway, which are perfect, and now I'll probably put the Super Record calipers back on.

Upon studying it all, it appears that combo of Campy levers/Shimano calipers will work on standard width rims but as the rim gets wider your chances of that combo working get slimmer.

Hence the need for something with a cam type of adjuster like the Bontrager Speedstops. It makes sense they'd have something like that since they don't have their own groupset and need to make sure their brakes will work with all the levers on the market.

Having not actaully worked with the Speedstops yet, I'm not sure of all their nuances but I will for sure try them out with different rim widths and different levers to educate myself on exactly how they work and how to set them up properly for whichever system is in use.

I think however, that they do much more than just "shimming" to make up the difference (I just read @Nefarious's post before finishing up this one). With the cam, they can actually change the progressive rate of the caliper movement to match what the levers you are using are designed to do. You just have to find that sweet spot for your situation. The shims are just a bodge which basically makes them "kind of work", in much the same way that my Campy/Shimano setup on my standard rims "kind of works", but by coincidence and luck. It's acceptable, but I think an adjustable cam type action thingy like the Bontragers seem to have would be much better. If I can get a hold of a set I will experiment and report back. What else have I got to do? ha.

And yes, Nefarious... that was the documentation I was studying... thanks for posting here. It's helpful. Poor Campy... they don't even want to mention them anymore. I think they had a falling out. But they do say that they can be adjusted for whatever levers you want to use, so yes, I could figure it out I'm sure.
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Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

I think I found with the SS it's a case of set the shims to compensate the width/geometry and then use the cam to dial in the bite point once you have the lever throw set. It was a while ago now tho but from memory when you set it right they were fantastic.

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Thanos
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by Thanos

Thanks for all the comments everyone. To answer 1 question, according to https://www.trekbikes.com/gb/en_GB/equi ... o/p/21835/ the new SS Pro are 95g with hollow arms and TI hardware.

And from the Q&A:

The weight of the calipers is with pads, as shown, Available now! The Speed Stop Pro brakes are an upgrade to the previous brakes as they come with Titanium hardware.

The original Speed Stop brakes weighed 116 grams each, and these are each 21 grams lighter.

So, does this put them on a par with EE DM brakes when they have shoes and pads?

I'm not actually too bothered by a few grams here or there (I know, shocker), but I do fancy something lighter than the Record DM brakes, as long as the braking is good. My Emonda will be used on Alpine climbs and descents during it's summer holidays.

For the the P1 Madone I've moved from, I used the Record standard mount brakes from 2010 and I found them fine with my ENVE 45 rims and grey ENVE pads. The wheels and pads have been moved over to my Emonda SLR.
Last edited by Thanos on Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thanos
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by Thanos

Nefarious86 wrote:You do need them, set aside for when the C64 shows up ;) sorry no campy recommendation but I'm sure you can work out the maths.




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I've asked a question on the Trek website as to what settings to use for Campagnolo levers. However, I expect it will be for post 2015 levers and iirc Campag changed the pull ratios from 2015, so no idea what my 2010 Record levers use...

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Should be the same, as the brake calipers did not change in 2015, just the shifting mechanics. But I would think just experimenting with the adjuster, ascertaining how it works on your own, then finding the best setting for your levers, whatever they are, would be a good way to go about it.
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Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Thanos
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by Thanos

Calnago wrote:Should be the same, as the brake calipers did not change in 2015, just the shifting mechanics. But I would think just experimenting with the adjuster, ascertaining how it works on your own, then finding the best setting for your levers, whatever they are, would be a good way to go about it.
Thanks @Calnago, I wasn't sure about that, so good to have it confirmed.

Now, decisions decisions. Do I go for EE DM brakes or try the SS Pro's. The SS Pro's are well over £200 cheaper, so financially, it's a no brainer, but I just don't know how good they are as I might be one of the first to try them......

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wheelbuilder
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by wheelbuilder

I would like to add as a former Trek Mechanic, we all thought the Speed Stop brakes sucked. As a cabling fanatic, contrary to that pic earlier that depicts the cable running to the outside and beyond the right brake shoe before being clipped........I thought that looked really sloppy. I would cut and crimp them about 10mm beyond their exit point so the crimped end would sit about 1mm above the right brake shoe. Looked really good but was very hard to get a perfect cut and not fray the cable in such ridiculously tight quarters. I thought they lacked power, and the adjustment screws would lose functionality over time.

Thanos
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by Thanos

wheelbuilder wrote:I would like to add as a former Trek Mechanic, we all thought the Speed Stop brakes sucked. As a cabling fanatic, contrary to that pic earlier that depicts the cable running to the outside and beyond the right brake shoe before being clipped........I thought that looked really sloppy. I would cut and crimp them about 10mm beyond their exit point so the crimped end would sit about 1mm above the right brake shoe. Looked really good but was very hard to get a perfect cut and not fray the cable in such ridiculously tight quarters. I thought they lacked power, and the adjustment screws would lose functionality over time.
Thanks, this is the kind of feedback I'm looking for. So, I think I can assume the new Pro's would be the same or at least similar, due to the same design, but Ti parts.

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garysol1
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by garysol1

Thanos wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:29 pm
wheelbuilder wrote:I would like to add as a former Trek Mechanic, we all thought the Speed Stop brakes sucked. As a cabling fanatic, contrary to that pic earlier that depicts the cable running to the outside and beyond the right brake shoe before being clipped........I thought that looked really sloppy. I would cut and crimp them about 10mm beyond their exit point so the crimped end would sit about 1mm above the right brake shoe. Looked really good but was very hard to get a perfect cut and not fray the cable in such ridiculously tight quarters. I thought they lacked power, and the adjustment screws would lose functionality over time.
Thanks, this is the kind of feedback I'm looking for. So, I think I can assume the new Pro's would be the same or at least similar, due to the same design, but Ti parts.

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Not to minimize wheelbuilders experiences but I need to add that as a current Trek mechanic I have had none of the same issues as Wheelbuilder. First off install as directed by Trek. The PDF file on Dexter outlines exactly how the cabling should be run and whether you like the way it looks or not it is the correct way to do it. It clearly states to run the cable out and clip it so that it rests on the pad holder. We have been installing Speed Stops for as long as they have been out and have simply NOT had any of the same tuning issues as mentioned above and have never had the tuning screws quit working over time.
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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

Earlier in the thread I asked the question about the risk of EE brakes damaging the paint/frame if the handlebar is swung hard to the right. This issue was raised from a recent EE brake review. I know there are a few EE brake owners here so I hope I can get a confirmation on whether this is an issue or a non-issue. And lastly I'd like to see some pics to get a better understanding of tire clearance of the EE brakes, which is a concern of mine as my current brakes (9100 DM) have great clearance (clearing a measured 30.5mm wide tire with 3mm clearance on each side). Thanks.

Thanos
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by Thanos

garysol1 wrote:
Thanos wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:29 pm
wheelbuilder wrote:I would like to add as a former Trek Mechanic, we all thought the Speed Stop brakes sucked. As a cabling fanatic, contrary to that pic earlier that depicts the cable running to the outside and beyond the right brake shoe before being clipped........I thought that looked really sloppy. I would cut and crimp them about 10mm beyond their exit point so the crimped end would sit about 1mm above the right brake shoe. Looked really good but was very hard to get a perfect cut and not fray the cable in such ridiculously tight quarters. I thought they lacked power, and the adjustment screws would lose functionality over time.
Thanks, this is the kind of feedback I'm looking for. So, I think I can assume the new Pro's would be the same or at least similar, due to the same design, but Ti parts.

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Not to minimize wheelbuilders experiences but I need to add that as a current Trek mechanic I have had none of the same issues as Wheelbuilder. First off install as directed by Trek. The PDF file on Dexter outlines exactly how the cabling should be run and whether you like the way it looks or not it is the correct way to do it. It clearly states to run the cable out and clip it so that it rests on the pad holder. We have been installing Speed Stops for as long as they have been out and have simply NOT had any of the same tuning issues as mentioned above and have never had the tuning screws quit working over time.
Also great, if contradictory advice, but that is wanted to hear. Any opinions on how good the brakes are stopping and modulation?

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by Weenie


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