SKF vs. NTN - fully sealed bearings

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
ooo
Posts: 537
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm

by ooo

"NTN-SNR" - is it the same as NTN Japan ?
'

hambini
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:13 am

by hambini

ooo wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:20 pm
"NTN-SNR" - is it the same as NTN Japan ?
SNR is a french company that was the main supplier of bearings to Renault. They were bought up by NTN.
vinuneuro wrote: @hambini, do you have any experience with the DDW 'light contact seal' bearings from NSK? NTN's version is LLH but doesn't do them in a 6806 size.

On that size they will be a special to order and the minimum order quantity would be several thousand. For the best performance, open bearings would be the best.

hambini

by Weenie


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mortirolo
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:08 am
Location: EU

by mortirolo

Can I swap Non Contact Seals (LLB) and Full Contact Seals (LLU) in NTN bearings?
I mean, can I make "hybrid sealed" bearings.

BB 6806 bearings: outside LLU (for protection) and inside LLB (for efficiency) seals.
Marco Pantani - Momenti Di Gloria

hambini
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:13 am

by hambini

mortirolo wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:41 pm
Can I swap Non Contact Seals (LLB) and Full Contact Seals (LLU) in NTN bearings?
I mean, can I make "hybrid sealed" bearings.

BB 6806 bearings: outside LLU (for protection) and inside LLB (for efficiency) seals.
Yes you could, the easiest way would be to buy an LLU bearing and pull the seal off the inside.

MichaelB
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:31 am

by MichaelB

Some great info here guys, many thanks for sharing and providing more that just 'opinions'

:beerchug:

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mortirolo
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:08 am
Location: EU

by mortirolo

hambini wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:02 pm
mortirolo wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:41 pm
Can I swap Non Contact Seals (LLB) and Full Contact Seals (LLU) in NTN bearings?
I mean, can I make "hybrid sealed" bearings.

BB 6806 bearings: outside LLU (for protection) and inside LLB (for efficiency) seals.
Yes you could, the easiest way would be to buy an LLU bearing and pull the seal off the inside.
Thanks. :thumbup:

I'am not too brave. I'd like to keep LLU seal inside, protecting the grease.

Relubricate:
What's the better solution?
Pulling the seal off from direction of outer or inner race?
From inner direction is easier but from outer direction is safer, I think.
Marco Pantani - Momenti Di Gloria

hambini
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:13 am

by hambini

mortirolo wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:32 pm
hambini wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:02 pm
mortirolo wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:41 pm
Can I swap Non Contact Seals (LLB) and Full Contact Seals (LLU) in NTN bearings?
I mean, can I make "hybrid sealed" bearings.

BB 6806 bearings: outside LLU (for protection) and inside LLB (for efficiency) seals.
Yes you could, the easiest way would be to buy an LLU bearing and pull the seal off the inside.
Thanks. :thumbup:

I'am not too brave. I'd like to keep LLU seal inside, protecting the grease.

Relubricate:
What's the better solution?
Pulling the seal off from direction of outer or inner race?
From inner direction is easier but from outer direction is safer, I think.
From the inner race towards the outer race is the recommended way. In any case, knocking the bearings out, regreasing and putting them back in is a bad idea. You are better off removing the seal in situ to avoid brinnelling

Hope that helps

Hambini

Svetty
Posts: 497
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:06 pm
Location: Yorkshire - God's Own Country

by Svetty

I see 37x25x7 bearings all over the place but very few sources of 24x37x7 and these are invariably Enduro. As Shimano et al use 24mm spindles am I correct in thinking that the bearings used in BSA BB cups are more or less cycle specific?

pdlpsher1
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

Thank you Hambini for coming here and sharing your knowledge. Many people and myself included have enjoyed watching your videos.

I have noticed something and wish you could shed some light on the subject, or perhaps even do a YouTube video on it. And that's the preload on a deep groove ball bearings. I have some wheels that use cup and cone bearings. The preload adjustment is always easy to do. The preload on a radial bearing however seems very touchy to adjustment. It seems you can either not get enough of it to reduce the play or put too much of it. Is the best way to put enough preload to just barely takes out the bearing play? Or should one put a bit of extra preload for reduced friction and increased bearing life? I've noticed that on my radial wheel bearings the side with the preload adjuster seems to go out earlier than the side without the preload adjuster. I wonder if the preload I had caused one bearing to go out earlier than the other. The preload force should be equal on both bearings (i.e. on the front wheel) so I'm baffled why one bearing would wear faster than the other one.

Thanks again for your contribution.

hambini
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:13 am

by hambini

Svetty wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:11 pm
I see 37x25x7 bearings all over the place but very few sources of 24x37x7 and these are invariably Enduro. As Shimano et al use 24mm spindles am I correct in thinking that the bearings used in BSA BB cups are more or less cycle specific?
Shimano normally use 6805N which is 25x37x6, this is not a standard size. Shimano (and myself) use a plastic insert between the bearing and the crank to stop the bearing wearing the crank out. The bearing is hardened steel and the crank axle is always a much softer steel/aluminium metal.

Some other manufacturers use a direct to shaft contact system - it's a cheaper way of manufacturing and use a 24x37x7 bearing which is what you have highlighted. This reduces the parts count but forces you to stick to Enduro or some other bike specific brand.

On a 30mm axle, a direct fit between the bearing and axle is the norm BUT you have much less pressure on the bearings because the contact patch is significantly larger - it will wear but no where near as fast.

Hope that helps

pdlpsher1 wrote: Thank you Hambini for coming here and sharing your knowledge. Many people and myself included have enjoyed watching your videos.

I have noticed something and wish you could shed some light on the subject, or perhaps even do a YouTube video on it. And that's the preload on a deep groove ball bearings. I have some wheels that use cup and cone bearings. The preload adjustment is always easy to do. The preload on a radial bearing however seems very touchy to adjustment. It seems you can either not get enough of it to reduce the play or put too much of it. Is the best way to put enough preload to just barely takes out the bearing play? Or should one put a bit of extra preload for reduced friction and increased bearing life? I've noticed that on my radial wheel bearings the side with the preload adjuster seems to go out earlier than the side without the preload adjuster. I wonder if the preload I had caused one bearing to go out earlier than the other. The preload force should be equal on both bearings (i.e. on the front wheel) so I'm baffled why one bearing would wear faster than the other one.

Thanks again for your contribution.
This is a good question and certainly worth a video. I will add it somewhere near the top of my list. The preload on any bearing will only ever get looser, as the bearings wear the clearance gets bigger so you should only ever do them up so they take the play out.

As the bearings wear you need to dial in more preload - this term is actually incorrect because the preload force stays the same, it's only the relative position that changes. I have used the common terminology here it so everyone can understand.

If you have one bearing that is going out before the other one, its probably one of the following:

1. Defective bearing - unlikely if it's a decent brand
2. Misalignment - quite possible if the hub is forged and then machined from both ends
3. Tight fit - quite possible if the hub was machined with a worn tool.

Hope that helps

Hambini

pdlpsher1
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

Thank you Hambini for the quick response. I will keep an eye on the new NTN bearings I just installed. The old bearings I had weren't terribly bad but I don't like any crunchiness in any of my bearings so I replaced them. One side feels very good and the other side has a bit of crunchiness.

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mortirolo
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:08 am
Location: EU

by mortirolo

hambini wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:54 am
mortirolo wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:32 pm
hambini wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:02 pm
mortirolo wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:41 pm
Can I swap Non Contact Seals (LLB) and Full Contact Seals (LLU) in NTN bearings?
I mean, can I make "hybrid sealed" bearings.

BB 6806 bearings: outside LLU (for protection) and inside LLB (for efficiency) seals.
Yes you could, the easiest way would be to buy an LLU bearing and pull the seal off the inside.
Thanks. :thumbup:

I'am not too brave. I'd like to keep LLU seal inside, protecting the grease.

Relubricate:
What's the better solution?
Pulling the seal off from direction of outer or inner race?
From inner direction is easier but from outer direction is safer, I think.
From the inner race towards the outer race is the recommended way. In any case, knocking the bearings out, regreasing and putting them back in is a bad idea. You are better off removing the seal in situ to avoid brinnelling

Hope that helps

Hambini
Better tolerances is increasing bearing life?
I mean, NTN 6806 LLBP2 Super Precision "P2 JIS Class 2" more durable than NTN 6806 LLB with "P6/P6" tolerances?
Marco Pantani - Momenti Di Gloria

vinuneuro
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Chicago

by vinuneuro

For those of you in the US who want the NSK 6806-DDU full-contact seal bearing, made in japan. It is available from Makita power tools as a replacement part for $6, p/n 211294-4. Picked it up today from the Makita service center in Chicago, but it's equally inexpensive through US the online tool parts stores.
Last edited by vinuneuro on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'16 Spec Diverge Expert

hambini
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:13 am

by hambini

mortirolo wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:27 pm


Better tolerances is increasing bearing life?
I mean, NTN 6806 LLBP2 Super Precision "P2 JIS Class 2" more durable than NTN 6806 LLB with "P6/P6" tolerances?
It's no more durable but it will spin with less friction. The metal is the same, it's the geometry that is better.

Hope that helps

Hambini

kode54
Posts: 1212
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 9:39 pm

by kode54

@hambini,

difficult to get NTN in the US, but as others noted, the Makita 6806 LLU bearings are easy to source. will I notice much of a difference?
- AX Lightness Vial EVO D + DA9150 + Enve SES 3.4 carbon hubs
- Parlee Altum + DA9150 + Enve SES 4.5 carbon hubs
- Parlee ESX + DA9150 + THM SRM PM + Enve SES 6.7 CK hubs
- Independent Fabrication Ti FLW + DA9100 + Enve 3.4 CK hubs

by Weenie


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