SKF vs. NTN - fully sealed bearings

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
vinuneuro
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by vinuneuro

These are both Tier 1 bearings so I'll admit this is splitting hairs. People have reported though that the NTN full contacting sealed bearings seem to have a bit less friction in the hand than corresponding ones from SKF. I'm wondering if this means that the SKF seals seal better and give longer life.

Has anyone used both SKF and NTN sealed bearings, did one last longer than the other? The application is bb30 bottom bracket so I'm less concerned about marginal friction increase to get longer life. Price is almost the same for both.
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by Weenie


vinuneuro
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by vinuneuro

Got in touch with Hambini who said the NTN last 20-25% longer. In the full contact seal application, more friction than SKF but last longer.

I'm not in the UK or I'd order from him. He/they seem to really be on top of the engineering side of cycling and incredibly fast communication response.
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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

NTN's tolerances are tighter than SKF's. It has nothing to do with the seals. Bearing life is all to do with the tolerances.

Stefano
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by Stefano

NSK is even better though if you can find them :)

vinuneuro
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by vinuneuro

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Hellgate
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by Hellgate

bm0p700f wrote:NTN's tolerances are tighter than SKF's. It has nothing to do with the seals. Bearing life is all to do with the tolerances.
Not necessarily. Both makers have a wide variety of grades/tolerances. The level of sealing can vary too. Making a blanket statement on one vs another isn't accurate.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

vinuneuro wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:13 am
Good video on the subject

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcAXaerTaG0
Thanks for sharing. Yes I only buy NTN bearings and none of the Enduro crap.

According to this video the seals actually create very little drag. It's the lubricant that creates most of the bearing drag. Take a look (fast forward to minute 7 of the video).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDLCmL6KT6g

chiumomo
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by chiumomo

Make sure you got the non-contact rubber seal for minimum drag,
I use NTN 6806 on my caad10, it is very smooth and only devlope little lateral play after 20000km

vinuneuro
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by vinuneuro

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:09 am

Thanks for sharing. Yes I only buy NTN bearings and none of the Enduro crap.

According to this video the seals actually create very little drag. It's the lubricant that creates most of the bearing drag. Take a look (fast forward to minute 7 of the video).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDLCmL6KT6g

Thanks, that's a great one too. His sample bearing also was an 'RS' model so it had the full contact seals and the added friction was minimal. Friction Facts test also found that the seals have minimal effect. What's important to note isn't that the friction is minimal in absolute terms. At high speeds there definitely is a big difference in sealed vs. non-contact seals vs. full contact seals; but even 140rpm is very slow and at such low speeds the increase in friction is marginal regardless of how it feels in the hand.

https://cyclingtips.com/2016/05/frictio ... -friction/

Where are you buying the NTN bearings from in the US? I haven't found any reasonably priced sellers online yet.

chiumomo wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:09 am
Make sure you got the non-contact rubber seal for minimum drag,
I use NTN 6806 on my caad10, it is very smooth and only devlope little lateral play after 20000km
Considering the life the guy in the link i posted earlier, got with the one unsealed bearing, I might be tempted to go with the non-contact seal version (6806-LLB). But since my bike is used on road as well as gravel and mud, I will be going for the full contact seal model 6806-LLU. Plus unless competing at the highest level is some fraction of a watt really worth sacrificing bearing life.
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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

I got my NTN bearings from Hambini. I also couldn’t find them in the US. There’s a separate thread on bearings and one poster gave a website/supplier in the US. I looked and it says available to ship in three days. So it appears they don’t stock it and they get it form someone else, which makes me a bit skeptical as there are a lot of fake ones out there.

My new NTN bearings have a lot of drag. I suspect it’s due to the new seals needing miles to break in. I will report back after some miles. I got the LLU full contact seals because I favor durability over speed. If your beatings are worn they will slow you down.


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Last edited by pdlpsher1 on Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

JackRussellRacing
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by JackRussellRacing

@vineuro - You're over on Fchat, right? ;)

If it says anything about the quality of bearings, Hill Engineering specs all of their Ferrari tensioners and clutch release bearings with mostly NSK and some NTN.

The quality of SKF has indeed dropped noticeably in the past 5 years, as much of their production (at least for the stuff we use in the Ferrari world) has moved outside of France and Italy. I certainly don't know where the applicable BB bearings are produced, but it wouldn't surprise me if those too are chasing the lowest cost facility they can find.

Johnny Rad
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by Johnny Rad

Thanks for sharing the link. I hadn't read it before.

So, where can one find a listing of the best "watts saved to longevity" for bearing grease / lube? The CS TT grease / lube sounded great until I read that it lasts "just" 1-2K km.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I a m not making a blanket statement. NTN's bearings for the higher end products do have tighter tolerances.

For the hubs I am going to have made getting hold of ntn bearings is difficult so SKF's will be used but each one gets measured and and selected to a tighter spec. Thus ends up being a cheaper way to get nearly ntn level bearings but without the difficulty of buying them.

hambini
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by hambini

Just to chirp in here.

A bit of background. Most of you who follow my youtube channel will know I am an Aero engineer. As part of that I have to make equipment reliable and there is always a desire to reduce friction. In testing the NTN bearings are generally the best irrespective of which seal is put on them. Their technical support is also very good (especially in the UK). The vast majority of NTN's 6000 series bearings are made in Japan and they are sticklers for quality control.

The only issue with NTN is supply. Getting hold of NTN bearings can be difficult as they will not sell to end customers directly.

SKF bearings are expensive and of decent quality but there is a huge problem in the UK (and Europe) with fakes. I'd say 60-70% of all ebay "SKF" bearings are fake and there are a number of bearing distributors in the UK (and probably the world) that are selling fakes - it's not clear if they are doing it willingly or not. If you put the real SKF bearing next to the fake SKF bearing the customer would not notice until he/she spun them in their fingers, the packaging and markings are almost exact - the internals however are not. Unlike NTN, SKF bearings are made all over the world so it is more difficult for them to maintain uniform quality. I still rate SKF bearings highly.

There are some subtle technical differences between the bearings even though they are of the same size. The cage can be plastic (Enduro) or metal cage (NTN), ball dimensions can be slightly different and the contact angles can also be slightly different. It's difficult to do a blanket recommendation. I've done a small table below to show you what I would recommend per size for the standard bearings out there. If someone wants to pin it feel free.


Non Contact Seals (NTN LLB, SKF 2RZ, NSK VV)


608 8 x 22 x 7 NTN
6000 10 x 26 x 8 NTN
6001 12 x 28 x 8 NTN
6200 10 x 30 x 9 NTN
6802 15 x 24 x 5 (same as 61802)* NTN
6803 17 x 26 x 5 (same as 61803)* NTN
6804 20 x 32 x 7 (same as 61804)* NTN
6805 25 x 37 x 7 (same as 61805)* NTN/NSK/SKF
6806 30 x 42 x 7 (same as 61806)* NTN
6900 10 x 22 x 7 (same as 61900)* NTN
6901 12 x 24 x 6 (same as 61901)* NTN
6902 15 x 28 x 7 (same as 61902)* NTN
6903 17 x 30 x 7 (same as 61903)* NTN

Full Contact Seals (NTN LLU, NSK DD, SKF 2RS, FAG/INA 2RSR)

608 8 x 22 x 7 NTN FAG
6000 10 x 26 x 8 NTN FAG
6001 12 x 28 x 8 NTN
6200 10 x 30 x 9 NTN
6802 15 x 24 x 5 (same as 61802)* NTN
6803 17 x 26 x 5 (same as 61803)* NTN
6804 20 x 32 x 7 (same as 61804)* NTN SKF
6805 25 x 37 x 7 (same as 61805)* NTN NSK FAG SKF
6806 30 x 42 x 7 (same as 61806)* NTN
6900 10 x 22 x 7 (same as 61900)* NTN
6901 12 x 24 x 6 (same as 61901)* NTN
6902 15 x 28 x 7 (same as 61902)* NTN FAG
6903 17 x 30 x 7 (same as 61903)* NTN FAG


Hope that helps

Hambini

by Weenie


vinuneuro
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by vinuneuro

@hambini, do you have any experience with the DDW 'light contact seal' bearings from NSK? NTN's version is LLH but doesn't do them in a 6806 size.

JackRussellRacing wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:02 pm
@vineuro - You're over on Fchat, right? ;)

If it says anything about the quality of bearings, Hill Engineering specs all of their Ferrari tensioners and clutch release bearings with mostly NSK and some NTN.

The quality of SKF has indeed dropped noticeably in the past 5 years, as much of their production (at least for the stuff we use in the Ferrari world) has moved outside of France and Italy. I certainly don't know where the applicable BB bearings are produced, but it wouldn't surprise me if those too are chasing the lowest cost facility they can find.
Hi Daniel, yep Vig from fchat. Good to know regarding SKF. As Hambini wrote though, I wonder if the SKF fakes are what are bringing down the perceived quality. I would suspect the actual SKF quality should be ok regardless of where it is made since these (ie. NTN, NSK, SKF) are all multi-national corporations manufacturing to ISO standards.
Johnny Rad wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:39 pm

Thanks for sharing the link. I hadn't read it before.

So, where can one find a listing of the best "watts saved to longevity" for bearing grease / lube? The CS TT grease / lube sounded great until I read that it lasts "just" 1-2K km.
The complete test reports can be gotten from www.friction-facts.com though I don't know if they test longevity. I haven't purchased any reports so you can check with them.
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