Tubeless set-up lighter than lightweight tire & tube?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
alcatraz
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by alcatraz

Don't tubeless tires need a special layer to hold air at pressure?

I was wondering how such a layer can have lower rolling resistance than a 50gr latex tube?

I bet it must be made of a butyl kind of rubber that doesn't leak mad air like latex. Then the crr should be higher too.

Curious to know a bit more..

/a

Geoff
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by Geoff

I'm not so sure that the weight issue is that big a deal. The reason to go tubeless is to reduce punctures. For that purpose, they are really good. Admittedly, some of that may be just the 'peace of mind' that you get from them.

From a weight perspective, they are definitely heavier and I would commend sticking to tubulars for racing. If you want a light set of tubeless, you can get carbon tubeless wheels that produce a really light setup.

by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Not all tubeless tires have a thick butyl inner layer.

And even the ones that do have less friction loss because the butyl layer is integrated into the construction of the tire.

mattr
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by mattr

alcatraz wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:31 pm
Don't tubeless tires need a special layer to hold air at pressure?

I was wondering how such a layer can have lower rolling resistance than a 50gr latex tube?

I bet it must be made of a butyl kind of rubber that doesn't leak mad air like latex. Then the crr should be higher too.

Curious to know a bit more..

/a
The layer doesn't need a structure, or very much mechanical strength. The actual airtight layer probably only adds a handful of grams to the tyre, no way near 50, the rest of the weight difference is likely to be in the stronger bead and bead shape.

bobones
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Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

Tubeless *ready* tyres don't have a butyl layer and tend to be lot lighter than their fully tubeless counterparts. These require the use of sealant to hold air. I have a few sets of TR tyres that weigh less than 250g and I've weighed rim tape, valves and sealant at around 50g per tyre, which probably totals around the same as a decent lightweight non-tubeless tyre with a lightweight tube and standard rim tape.

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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

jih wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:10 am
IrrelevantD wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:06 pm
Perhaps set up two wheels, one with a training setup, one more of a "race day/big event" setup.
Unless your races are supported, I'd run with reasonable puncture resistance there too.

Most amateur races, you puncture, you're out.
True... but I've seen several open road races offer neutral SAG with wheels in/wheels out. But yea, either way, you puncture you're day is pretty much done because you're not likely to catch back up to the pack from the single SAG vehicle on the corse.

Big event/charity rides around here typically have lots of SAG vehicles some with mechanics with extra tubes. You may have to wait 10-15 min for one to come by, but they can at least get you back on the road or give you a ride to a rest stop.
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Orlok
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by Orlok

LouisN wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:17 pm
What about the Vittoria Corsa Speed Graphene Open TLR ? From the bicyclerollingresistance website, it's the fastest tire out there.
Is it a better idea to mount it as tubeless with sealant on a fast high profile/TT wheelset, or better with a latex tube inside ... ?

Louis :)
Why should you mount a tubeless tire with a latex tube inside, it doesn't make sense. Using with sealant
will give the best results. :wink:
Once comes a time that you'll have a tailwind :D
Pinarello F10 - Ultegra 6800 - Carbonspeed C38 - Tubeless

Chris3g
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:51 pm

by Chris3g

Interesting that the Hutchinson TLRs are that much lighter than pro ones, sounds like even the mid level tire is a good 20g+ lighter each than an average pro one. Any downsides to these vs the pro ones other than mileage lifespan?

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LouisN
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by LouisN

Orlok wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:32 pm
LouisN wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:17 pm
What about the Vittoria Corsa Speed Graphene Open TLR ? From the bicyclerollingresistance website, it's the fastest tire out there.
Is it a better idea to mount it as tubeless with sealant on a fast high profile/TT wheelset, or better with a latex tube inside ... ?

Louis :)
Why should you mount a tubeless tire with a latex tube inside, it doesn't make sense. Using with sealant
will give the best results. :wink:
My point is the bicyclerollingresistance tests are ran with 20ml of sealant. Is this enough to ensure real life conditions on the road ?
So hence my questioning to people that have tested both types of setups. It would be interesting to have the tubeless tests ran with different amounts of sealant.

Louis :)

dvq
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Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:36 pm

by dvq

Chris3g wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:51 pm
Interesting that the Hutchinson TLRs are that much lighter than pro ones, sounds like even the mid level tire is a good 20g+ lighter each than an average pro one. Any downsides to these vs the pro ones other than mileage lifespan?
I've ridden both, they have roughly the same puncture protection. Pro Ones last me 2000 mi, 11storm TLR lasted me 1300 mi. The Pro Ones are MUCH wider than advertised, while the Hutchinsons are true-er to spec width. Hutchinson are a tad bit easier to mount on ENVE 5.6 Discs

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

Noctiluxx wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:36 pm
Hey guys, I've had a bad run of flats the last two weeks. Currently running Michelin Power Comp 23mm with Conti "Light" butyl tubes on DT Swiss Spline 28 Mont Chasseral tubeless compatible wheels. I was thinking of trying out the Schwalbe One tubeless tires. What do you think?
In my opinion Schwalbe Pro One tubeless tires were absolutely useless. For me they punctured if you even looked at them the wrong way, and what's worse they wouldn't seal until the pressure dropped back to 30psi with either Stan's or Joe's. They were at least faster, lighter and handled as well as Continental GP4000S2 on the good side. If you owe the puncture fairy karma I wouldn't go near the Schwalbe Pro Ones, unless your roads are uber clean.

My DT Swiss RR21 Dicut seem to match up extremely well with my rims. I would go with Panaracer RACE A EVO3 tubeless. Only problems are weight and cost.

Panaracer RACE A EVO3 tubeless 23mm = 280g x 2 = 560g plus sealant = 620g
Your current setup = 195g x 2 = 390g + tubes 65 x 2 = 130g = 520g

100g too much extra?

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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

LouisN wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:11 pm

My point is the bicyclerollingresistance tests are ran with 20ml of sealant. Is this enough to ensure real life conditions on the road ?
So hence my questioning to people that have tested both types of setups. It would be interesting to have the tubeless tests ran with different amounts of sealant.

Louis :)
20ml should be plenty for road, at least for 23 or 25c tires. It may depend on the actual sealant used, but with some you could reasonably run less in true tubeless tires (with butyl layer). I've run 15 with Stans Race Day and it works just fine. Using a lighter tubeless ready tire that would need the sealant to keep from losing air through the sidewalls, I would say 20ml is necessary. I'd probably stay with 20ml with sealants like Cafeelatex that are foaming. That being said, 5ml of sealant really isn't going to make a huge difference in rotational mass, which is really what you'd be concerned with. I'd be very surprised if 5-10ml less sealant has any affect on rolling resistance.
Lewn777 wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:15 am
My DT Swiss RR21 Dicut seem to match up extremely well with my rims. I would go with Panaracer RACE A EVO3 tubeless. Only problems are weight and cost.
I love these tires, on my first set on a pair of HEDs and they work great with wide rims. Question for you... have you seen any wear issues? Seems like they wear a bit faster than the Schwalbe Pro One's I was running before.
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

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DOUG
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by DOUG

My Pro Ones were both 255g on my scales, so with 30ml of sealant there isn't really a weight saving. I think for MTB where you want to be running heavy tubes to avoid pinch flatting there is a definite weight saving but for road it would be negligible.

The main advantage for me is being able to run lower pressures without the risk of pinch flatting plus if you do get a puncture they will self seal. Sometimes the hole will seal quickly and you dont even notice sometimes you just add a bit of air once the sealant does its job. I've had 1 puncture in 800km on my Pro Ones from a piece of glass that would have punctured regardless of the tyre I was running. took about 20 seconds or so but the sealant sealed the hole and I added a bit of air with the mini pump and I was on my way.

Once the Pro Ones wear out I might give the Panaracers a try. They have been well recommended by quite a few people on here.

dim
Posts: 223
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Location: Cambridge UK

by dim

tubeless: 2017 IRC Formula Pro RBCC tubeless

clinchers: Specialized Turbo Cotton
Giant TCR
Canyon Endurace AL
Specialized Allez Sport

by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Additional measured weights:

Pirelli Cinturato Velo TLR 28mm - 338g, 339g
Mavic Yksion Pro UST 28mm - 284g, 284g, 292g

One of my Yksions ate too much cake. The Cinturatos are much less flexible at the center tread, but that’s to be expected with the puncture belt underneath. Seems these are the first proper tubeless all-season tires out of the Hutchinson factory.

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