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Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:44 am
by TobinHatesYou
I was kinda grasping at straws with the non-wheelset/bars stuff. I will note the stem doesn't have much of a streamlined profile in addition to some exposed cabling, but with a rider included the airflow in that area is a mess either way?

As for the cranks, yeah probably negligible in hindsight...was thinking the shape of the cranks might be more bladed and foil-like.

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:34 am
by Stendhal
DamonRinard wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:49 pm
Hi anykarthik,

Glad to be here helping fellow weight weenies. :-)

We have different distribution plans around the world, so the best person to answer your frameset question is your local Cannondale dealer. Our website makes it easy to find them: https://dealerlocator.cannondale.com/

In general, we're focusing more on complete bikes than framesets. We also expect to sell out all models of SystemSix, so I recommend to find out quickly about frameset and bike availability from your dealer.

Cheers,
Damon
I join in thanking you for participating stongly on this site and in your technical papers over the years. A biking friend of mine said just the other day that the best bike he's ever owned was a Cervelo R5, 2012 model that I sold him (I think it was 3 generations ago...it was black and gray) -- a Damon Rinard design! Cervelo's loss is Cannondale's gain.

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:34 am
by Weenie

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:59 am
by Jugi

spartan wrote: which one is more aero and a better buy
In these two builds, wheels obviously make a measurable difference. Differences in frame aerodynamics are most likely measured as single or very low double digits in watts. As you are chasing the more aerodynamically efficient package, I would choose the bike with deeper rim profiles. But in general, wheels are easy to change afterwards, so I would ask the following questions to guide the purchase:

Which bike has a more suitable frame geometry/sizing for you?

Are there proprietary solutions on the bikes which may limit adjustability in ergonomics and overall fit?

What differences do the bikes have in proprietary solutions in general? Which of those do you see as an added bonus? Which seem like a hinderance? Do you plan on keeping the bike for more than five years? Are there proprietary solutions which may exhibit wear and tear during that time? How new is the frame design? Will there be compatible proprietary parts available in five years?

Do you need compatibility for different types of groupset on the long run? Mechanical, wired electric and wireless?

Which one is more sexy in your opinion? At the end of the day, you are the one making the bike go fast. In my experience, sexy bikes are usually fastest of the bunch.

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:32 am
by ryanw
A genuine question here:

As someone who travels a lot with their bike, what is the score with packing the bike in a bike box?

The stops that are built into the headset/steerertube, I assume they stop the fork twisting 90°, which is what is required to fit a bike in a Bike Box Allan?

Potentially a deal breaker for me, but hopefully Cannondale have thought about this.

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:57 pm
by themidge
Jugi wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:59 am
Will there be compatible proprietary parts available in five years?
I reckon this might come back to haunt all these integrated and proprietary bikes in a few years, with a 'normal' bike you can replace anything with anything, but not so on most modern aero bikes. People might be forced to buy a whole new bike just because their seatpost cracks :( , I suppose the manufacturers aren't bothered about that though.

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:58 pm
by DamonRinard
Stendhal wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:34 am
I join in thanking you for participating stongly on this site and in your technical papers over the years.
Thanks Stendhal for the confidence. I have to say I'm happy to have been so lucky to work with some great people at the different companies over the years. My name is sometimes visible to the public, but those often un-named folks in the project team contribute greatly to the good results you see and can ride.

Cheers,
Damon

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:02 am
by DamonRinard
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:44 am
I was kinda grasping at straws with the non-wheelset/bars stuff. I will note the stem doesn't have much of a streamlined profile in addition to some exposed cabling, but with a rider included the airflow in that area is a mess either way?
Hi TobinHatesYou,

You've made some very good guesses. The thing is, as you know we're often surprised what makes a difference - and what doesn't. The Vision 4D bars are surprisingly quite similar to a good integrated bar+stem, even with what looks like non-integrated "normal" stem. Yes, with a rider, and surprisingly, even when tested without.

Cheers,
Damon

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:06 am
by DamonRinard
ryanw wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:32 am
A genuine question here:

As someone who travels a lot with their bike, what is the score with packing the bike in a bike box?

The stops that are built into the headset/steerertube, I assume they stop the fork twisting 90°, which is what is required to fit a bike in a Bike Box Allan?

Potentially a deal breaker for me, but hopefully Cannondale have thought about this.
Hi ryanw,

We designed the SystemSix to stop at + and - 50 degrees, so less than the 90 you're looking for. We ship the SystemSix to dealers with the fork pointed forwards. Stem on the fork, bars off the stem. The bike box is a few centimeters longer, so if you want the box have the dealer save it for you. (Or just look for a longer box, lots of MTB boxes are longer).

For a travel case, SciCon comes to mind and I'm sure there are others.

Cheers,
Damon

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:14 am
by DamonRinard
themidge wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:57 pm
Jugi wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:59 am
Will there be compatible proprietary parts available in five years?
I reckon this might come back to haunt all these integrated and proprietary bikes in a few years, with a 'normal' bike you can lireplace anything with anything, but not so on most modern aero bikes. People might be forced to buy a whole new bike just because their seatpost cracks :( , I suppose the manufacturers aren't bothered about that though.
Edited to say, rather than refer to a page number in the white paper, just search for "figure 23."
Thanks @TobinHatesYou.
-DGR

Hi Jugi, hi themidge,

@Jugi, great questions for a buyer's consideration.

@themidge, indeed, compatible spares are something to think about. For many aero road bikes, headsets especially seem to have become the latest proprietary part: cables running though bearings, unique compression rings & spacers, etc.

For the SystemSix, we studies those designs and decided to stick with a 100% common headset: bearings, compression ring, spacers, everything is compatible with parts that have been available and in wide use for several design generations, on the Synapse and SuperSix EVO for example.

PF30A is also common, been used on Cannondales for multiple design generations, lots of aftermarket BBs and cranks too.

The seatpost is indeed proprietary, and you can read why in the white paper, just search for "figure 23". It sees even higher local airspeed than other areas of the bike, so gives real performance being a low-drag design.

Cheers,
Damon

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:21 am
by TobinHatesYou
DamonRinard wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:14 am

The seatpost is indeed proprietary, and you can read why in the white paper, on page 33. It sees even higher local airspeed than other areas of the bike, so gives real performance being a low-drag design.

Ah, page 42. Venturi effect from a positioned rider...very cool.

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:38 am
by DamonRinard
Hi TobinHatesYou,
Right, different page, thanks for the heads up. I've edited my post to simply give a Figure number instead. Easier to be sure to find it.
Cheers,
Damon

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:54 am
by mrlobber
DamonRinard wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:14 am
The seatpost is indeed proprietary, and you can read why in the white paper, just search for "figure 23". It sees even higher local airspeed than other areas of the bike, so gives real performance being a low-drag design.
Very interesting. Would that suggest that for many triathlon bikes the single-bottle-behind-the-saddle wouldn't in fact be a drag-neutral solution? I'd imagine that with a moving body, airflow around that part should be pretty similar for all the bikes?

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:59 am
by ryanw
DamonRinard wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:06 am
ryanw wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:32 am
A genuine question here:

As someone who travels a lot with their bike, what is the score with packing the bike in a bike box?

The stops that are built into the headset/steerertube, I assume they stop the fork twisting 90°, which is what is required to fit a bike in a Bike Box Allan?

Potentially a deal breaker for me, but hopefully Cannondale have thought about this.
Hi ryanw,

We designed the SystemSix to stop at + and - 50 degrees, so less than the 90 you're looking for. We ship the SystemSix to dealers with the fork pointed forwards. Stem on the fork, bars off the stem. The bike box is a few centimeters longer, so if you want the box have the dealer save it for you. (Or just look for a longer box, lots of MTB boxes are longer).

For a travel case, SciCon comes to mind and I'm sure there are others.

Cheers,
Damon
Hi Damon, thanks for the reply.

I was actually referring to traveling with my bike in my Bike Box Alan (see pic).

I’m genuinely not sure anyone with this box could travel with the SystemSix?!

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:10 am
by TobinHatesYou
mrlobber wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:54 am

Very interesting. Would that suggest that for many triathlon bikes the single-bottle-behind-the-saddle wouldn't in fact be a drag-neutral solution? I'd imagine that with a moving body, airflow around that part should be pretty similar for all the bikes?
It’s the best of the available placement options with regular shaped bottles. Ultimately a frame mounted bottle is going to nominally increase FA while the saddle-mounted position sits in a pocket of relatively low pressure.

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:15 am
by Stueys
ryanw wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:59 am
DamonRinard wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:06 am
ryanw wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:32 am
A genuine question here:

As someone who travels a lot with their bike, what is the score with packing the bike in a bike box?

The stops that are built into the headset/steerertube, I assume they stop the fork twisting 90°, which is what is required to fit a bike in a Bike Box Allan?

Potentially a deal breaker for me, but hopefully Cannondale have thought about this.
Hi ryanw,

We designed the SystemSix to stop at + and - 50 degrees, so less than the 90 you're looking for. We ship the SystemSix to dealers with the fork pointed forwards. Stem on the fork, bars off the stem. The bike box is a few centimeters longer, so if you want the box have the dealer save it for you. (Or just look for a longer box, lots of MTB boxes are longer).

For a travel case, SciCon comes to mind and I'm sure there are others.

Cheers,
Damon
Hi Damon, thanks for the reply.

I was actually referring to traveling with my bike in my Bike Box Alan (see pic).

I’m genuinely not sure anyone with this box could travel with the SystemSix?!
+1, interested. Most of the hard case bike boxes require a similar orientation, though BBA is by far the most widely seen out there.

Re: New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:15 am
by Weenie