New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
CAAD8FRED
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:52 pm

by CAAD8FRED

Hey Damon

What is the aero penalty for using smaller rims? If the 64 mm stock wheels were replaced with 50 or even 40 mm how would climbing and aero be affected?

by Weenie


DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

Hi CAAD8FRED,

We ran the performance calculations for EF-Drapac p/b Cannondale pros and the deeper rim is faster in all conditions, even climbing, even climbing above the tipping point, even on a lightweight non-aero climbing bike. The weight gain is pretty small, and the aero drag reduction more than cancels it. Deep rims are faster: this is why our Knot rims are 64mm deep.

However, what's not in the performance calculations is handling in cross winds. Obviously, deeper rims have more side area, and according to our wind tunnel testing, the different models are pretty uniform in their increase in side force, which closely follows side area, regardless of rim cross section shape. This is one of the reasons we recommend training and racing on your deep wheels, so you have plenty of time to practice your reactions so they become reflexive. On the other hand, some riders just don't like to deal with sideforce, and are free to choose shallower wheels if they like.

Bottom line: if you can handle them, deep wheels are faster even on the steepest climbs.

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

anykarthik
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:37 pm

by anykarthik

Hi Damon,

Thanks for being here and answering questions! Do you know if the SystemSix Hi mod will be available as a frameset? I'm considering the Ultegra Di2 bike, but really am struggling to like the colorway of the stock bike. The Dura Ace gray/black is more my style, but the Ultegra functionality and pricepoint is where I want to be.

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

Hi anykarthik,

Glad to be here helping fellow weight weenies. :-)

We have different distribution plans around the world, so the best person to answer your frameset question is your local Cannondale dealer. Our website makes it easy to find them: https://dealerlocator.cannondale.com/

In general, we're focusing more on complete bikes than framesets. We also expect to sell out all models of SystemSix, so I recommend to find out quickly about frameset and bike availability from your dealer.

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

refthimos
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 6:02 pm

by refthimos

DamonRinard wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:46 pm

Just got this info from our inside sales folks. Not all models are listed, but this is what we have so far.

For size 56:
7.60 kg SystemSix Hi-MOD DA Di2
7.80 kg SystemSix Hi-MOD Ultegra Di2
7.75 kg SystemSix Carbon Da
8.05 kg SystemSix Carbon Ultegra

Note that weights include innertubes and all assembly pieces (spoke guard/reflectors).
Any way to check to see if these are the right numbers? Rather than 7.75kg, the first 56cm SystemSix Carbon Dura-Ace that I've seen weighed in the field came in at 18lb 7oz, or approx 8.36kg, for a difference of .61kg, or 1.34 pounds. Seems like a lot to be off, and would seem to indicate that even the top-of-the line Hi-Mod Di2 model will come in well over 18 pounds.
Attachments
OverweightSystemSix.jpg
SystemSix | On order | BBQ
EVO Hi-Mod | [WW Project in Process]
P5 | 9070 Di2 | Rotor 2Inpower | Aeolus 7 TLR | Alto Disc
T1 | Power2Max Type S | Rolf Prima FX58/Zipp Super 9 Disc

DamonRinard
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Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

refthimos wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:22 am
Any way to check to see if these are the right numbers?
Hi Robert,

I asked, and learned the source of the weights I copied and pasted above are in fact from the bikes we showed to our European customers recently, the first complete bikes we had available to weigh. For the D-A model you mention, there is a grey color, not sure it's available in North America, which I would guess should be lighter than the fluo. Also, for display, I'm told stems are slammed, forks cut, reflectors & spoke disc not installed. This is contrary to our statement above, since we normally do include them, so I apologize for not checking the details before.

Bottom line: the SystemSix's excellent performance as described in the white paper (speed advantages in climbing, sprinting, descending, etc.) are based on real weights from EF-Drapac p/b Cannondale and still reflect what all SystemSix riders can expect to enjoy.

Hope this is helpful,

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

Glow
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:21 am

by Glow

Hello Damon!

With the launch of the systemsix and the high performance claims in the white paper it would seem that the supersix would be quite obsolete in regards of speed, unless you more frequently than not ride up >6% climbs. When would you advise a customer to go for the supersix over the systemsix?

I'm happy to see you taking time asking all the questions. Cannondales good will account has increased in my book. :)

Best regards,
Daniel

DamonRinard
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Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

Hi Daniel,

The white paper is right: the Cannondale SystemSix really is faster almost everywhere, for almost everyone. Yes, that means the SuperSix EVO is not as fast, except as you mentioned, climbing up hills steeper than the tipping point, around 6%.

That's why we recommend the EVO to riders for whom climbs steeper than 6% are their critical moment in the race. In the case of pros (like EF-Drapac p/b Cannondale), this means GC riders or their support climbers, who must stay with or drop the leading riders on the steepest slopes. It's a critical moment for their role in the race.

On the other hand, for most other riders, like sprinters, rouleurs and most domestiques, it's not critical if they have to put out 3 more Watts for a few minutes, or lose a few seconds on the climb. If that moment isn't critical to their role in the race, the SystemSix has the better overall performance.

Basically, any pro (other than GC contender on the steepest stages) who chooses the EVO over the SystemSix, isn't taking his career seriously.

But that's from a performance perspective.

From any other perspective, the scientific performance may not be the top priority: anyone who has performance as a secondary criteria could prefer the EVO for many good reasons: A lighter bike just feels good; they might prefer the aesthetics of smaller tube shapes; they may already own an EVO; they might not enjoy new & shiny.

On that last note, I could say with every single pro team I've been involved with, some riders have resisted the introduction of new technology. They love the current bike, don't like the new bike. (You can substitute wheels, clothing, helmet, nutrition, almost anything.) It happens every year: they love last year's bike, hate this year's bike. Even the next year, the bike they hated a year ago has since become the favorite, and they hate the new one. (Next year, they'll hate our next new one and love this year's new one, which is now the old one!)

It reminds me of a kid at bath time. The kid doesn't want to get into the bath!!! But as soon as the bath is done, the kid doesn't want to get out of the bath!!! LOL

Hope this is helpful,

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

ryanw
Posts: 392
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:52 pm
Location: London

by ryanw

After seeing the neon yellow SystemSix in Sigma Sports (in the UK) today, I am pleasantly surprised as to how much I liked it.

Squeezing the tubing next to the new Venge, it was considerably firmer and seemed like a great all round package.

The large build weights that have been mentioned on the net have put me off a little, but a 56 around 7.5kg isn’t too bad.

Will hope that Sigma will allow for a demo bike so I can compare it to my S5.
'16 Cervelo S5 - 6650g
'17 Focus Mares Force 1
'15 Scott Addict Team - 6850g Sold
'17 Cervelo R3D DA - 7580g - Sold
'16 Cannondale CAAD12 DA Disc - 7560g - RIP


jlok
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

Hi Damon, how do you see future product including thread-together bottom bracket fitted right out of the box? Do you think the added cost (and resultant price rise) would hurt the sales?
Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

spartan
Posts: 1165
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:52 am

by spartan

following cannondale white paper on comparing aero based on stock configuration of production bikes.
which one is more aero and a better buy

stock systemsix ultegra

Image


stock giant propel 4k usd

Image
Current Rides:

2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL 0 DI2 9150

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1701
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

The shallower wheels will hurt the SystemSix at greater yaw. The lack of integrated cockpit might sap a watt or two. The spiderrings are also probably less aero, and if you want to get really nitpicky, that extra cabling going into the rear derailleur.

Working against the Propel in that image specifically is the angle of the lever bodies being tilted up quite a bit, but that is something you can fix without swapping parts.

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

Hi spartan,

The wind tunnel tested results for complete bikes are in the white paper in Figure 9. But there are a few component differences with the models you've pictured, from the models included in Figure 9. Luckily, sometimes you can add and subtract differences due to components to estimate performance.

Frameset: Same shapes as the tested bikes. Performance advantage to SystemSix, as shown in Figure 9.

Wheels: No data on Giant's wheels. See some wheel data in Figure 22. Fulcrum's not shown but we did test it, it's quite good but obviously, not quite in the same class as these top-end carbon wheels. My guess: compared to Giant, Fulcrum probably have similar drag at lower yaw, and higher drag at higher yaw, as TobinHatesYou mentioned.

Chainring: We haven't been able to measure a difference between Cannondale cranks and Shimano cranks. Probably a negligible difference. Regardless, any difference is already reflected in Figure 9.

Handlebars: The Vision Metron 4D handlebars are very good, matching the drag of the best fully integrated bars. So no change in bike difference, as any bar difference is already reflected in Figure 9.

Basically, it's down to wheels, with no data I'm aware of for the Giant wheels.

Clearly not a definitive answer, but I hope my speculation might still be helpful.

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

gwilson
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:41 am

by gwilson

Following a lot of reading, I've put an order in for the SystemSix Carbon Dura-Ace at my LBS. As someone who's never owned an aero bike (or even a carbon bike) before, thank you Damon for all your answers on this thread, it definitely contributed to my decision. Hopefully will have pictures and first impressions in the next week!

by Weenie


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