New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

morganb wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:14 pm
The power meter thing is one of the worst imaginable marketing decisions and also and the most Cannondale thing that I have heard. How long until someone finds a work around?

Apparently it’s not an unlock you just perform from a mobile app, but you have to ship it back to P2M and they’ll unlock it for you.

Also *someone* is paying for the hardware to sit dormant on your bike. If it’s already been baked into the sale price, the consumer pays on top of the unlock fee. I doubt Cannondale is paying much of the subsidy for these units since they don’t get money from the unlock. If P2M has mispredicted the unlock rate, it will affect their margins.

What’s next? Selling bikes with 12 speed electronic drivetrains with only 11 speed shifting enabled? Maybe shifting times artificially inflated until you get the pro-level subscription?

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TonyM
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by TonyM

Are you sure that you have to send back your crankset ??

To me you do the upgrade online....

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by Weenie


mag
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by mag

@DamonRinard

Hello, thanks for the link to the whitepaper. I looked at it and what I'm kind of missing there is more insight into the development process

- like how you started e.g. how was the 1st CFD iteration done (inital set of conditions and requirements)
- what CFD software was used
- how many there were successive iterations and what did they focus on
- at what point you created a 1:1 size model (prototype) and went with it to the wind tunnel and whether you started with multiple candidate models to analyze and how many
- whether those tests revealed anything new and worthy and how did the data correlate with the CFD modelling
- how many further CFD and wind tunnel iterations followed
- at what point did you start testing on the road and whether you really validated the data from previous sessions and how much was the design further altered based on the results
- at which areas you had to make some bigger compromises (due to limitations imposed by construction, comfort and UCI regulations requirements for example) than you'd like to
- some summary of the progress made during the whole development cycle showing how much improvement was achieved and how long did it take as a whole

I accept that you can hardly reveal a lot of such details (and the list above asks for more than you probably can), but for example the Madone whitepaper it a little more extensive in this regard and that's what I like about it.
Last edited by mag on Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

bilwit
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by bilwit

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:10 am
morganb wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:14 pm
The power meter thing is one of the worst imaginable marketing decisions and also and the most Cannondale thing that I have heard. How long until someone finds a work around?
Also *someone* is paying for the hardware to sit dormant on your bike. If it’s already been baked into the sale price, the consumer pays on top of the unlock fee. I doubt Cannondale is paying much of the subsidy for these units since they don’t get money from the unlock. If P2M has mispredicted the unlock rate, it will affect their margins.

What’s next? Selling bikes with 12 speed electronic drivetrains with only 11 speed shifting enabled? Maybe shifting times artificially inflated until you get the pro-level subscription?
I'm sure Cannondale worked a percentage into the sales price in some way while getting some sort of rebate/margin from P2M the same as an authorized P2M LBS dealer would by selling a P2M individually. P2M are basically selling the units twice (once to Cannondale on some sort of distribution deal and then again directly to consumer). It's almost like buying a PC that comes with an integrated GPU and an graphics card (or any other OEM part) and then having to pay to unlock it :lol:

Microtransactions on bikes, who knew :lol:

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TonyM
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by TonyM

Thanks Damon for the white paper!

It would be nice to see which wheels were taken for the competitor bikes in your comparison.
As without this information for us, it is more like comparing apples with oranges.

spartan
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Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:52 am

by spartan

thanks for the white paper link.

the wheelset looks amazing but the numbers quoted for the drag of the system six vs the competition is not relevant.
the bikes were tested with OEM wheelsets. 2019 Madone with std 60mm wheelset would surpass the systemsix easily.


we will have to wait for tour mag yearly aero test to find out who has the fastest disc bike.


DamonRinard wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:24 pm
Hi,

Not sure if anyone's posted the link to the technical paper:
https://www.cannondale.com/~/media/File ... epaper.pdf

I hope those who are interested in performance will take a look.
The section "Cycling Performance" reviews the basic equations of road cycling.
The section "Aerodynamics" should interest riders who are into the engineering.
The section "On Road Performance" might be interesting to riders who don't care as much about engineering. It lists several riding scenarios and shows where the SystemSix is faster and slower than a traditional light bike such as the SuperSix EVO.

Cheers,
Damon
Current Rides:

2019 S-Works Tarmac SL6 Bora Di2 9150
ex 2018 Trek Madone SLR Disc
ex 2016 Giant TCRAdvanced Sl
ex 2012 Trek Madone7

spartan
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by spartan

TonyM wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:36 am
Thanks Damon for the white paper!

It would be nice to see which wheels were taken for the competitor bikes in your comparison.
As without this information for us, it is more like comparing apples with oranges.
the specs are in the appendix.
the madone and propel have a huge disavantage with stock wheelset LOL. notice the use of cheater 23mm tires. easily worth a couple of watts vs 25's on wide rims
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2018-07-02 19_40_37-Microsoft Edge.png
Current Rides:

2019 S-Works Tarmac SL6 Bora Di2 9150
ex 2018 Trek Madone SLR Disc
ex 2016 Giant TCRAdvanced Sl
ex 2012 Trek Madone7

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TonyM
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by TonyM

Well based on that, the real comparison of the Systemsix frame vs. the competitors would be different if they would all have the same wheels (or similar wheels in terms of aerodynamics)......In this test the F10, Madone , Canyon would do much better with other wheels (similar to the KNOT64)

Yepp you are right, some with 23mm, some with 25mm

So this white paper is more like a mix between a white paper from the R&D and from the Marketing...LOL...Not uncommon nowadays....(Yes Spezialized I am looking at you....LOL...)

spartan
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by spartan

100 watts saved while descending vs evo is quite a claim. lol
Current Rides:

2019 S-Works Tarmac SL6 Bora Di2 9150
ex 2018 Trek Madone SLR Disc
ex 2016 Giant TCRAdvanced Sl
ex 2012 Trek Madone7

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

spartan wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:52 am
100 watts saved while descending vs evo is quite a claim. lol

It's not really far-fetched. Tour's aero test said an Emonda SLR (H2) takes 238W to hit the same speeds on flat ground as a Madone (H2) at 208W. On a descent, the speeds are much higher and the aero drag increases as a square function.

TonyM wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:16 am
Are you sure that you have to send back your crankset ??

To me you do the upgrade online....

Looks like I got bad info from my media friend.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

spartan
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by spartan

mmm if those numbers are legit. we now know why Froomey on F10 gained 1.5 minutes on Dumoulin(giant aero as a brick) on the descent in his epic ride at the Giro..
Current Rides:

2019 S-Works Tarmac SL6 Bora Di2 9150
ex 2018 Trek Madone SLR Disc
ex 2016 Giant TCRAdvanced Sl
ex 2012 Trek Madone7

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TonyM
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by TonyM

But 490 EUR to activate it is quite a joke! Just to keep the pricing for the SystemSix ok the consumers has then to pay it after....and do the upgrade etc....such an unnecessary hassle.....

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TonyM
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by TonyM

spartan wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:07 am
mmm if those numbers are legit. we now know why Froomey on F10 gained 1.5 minutes on Dumoulin(giant aero as a brick) on the descent in his epic ride at the Giro..
And also on the flat against the group behind him with Dumoulin, Pinot, Superman, etc...
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

refthimos
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by refthimos

I don't think Cannondale comparing bikes in their stock forms (yes, including their stock wheels) is as unfair as some of you are making it out to be. If you really think it through, there is no way to make a 100% "apples to apples" comparison of aero performance across brands other than to (1) test them as they are sold to the customer (i.e. stock), which has the problems mentioned above, e.g. one bike may be sold with more aero wheels than another or (2) try to "standardize" them with the same wheels and perhaps even other components, which would be unfair to certain framesets depending on what wheels/other components you chose, and would ultimately lead you to demand testing of all possible bike/component combinations.

Problems with approach #1: Pretty obvious. Bike A is sold with uber-fast aero wheels (Wheels A). Bike B is sold with slower wheels (Wheels B). Bike A + Wheels A tests faster than Bike B + Wheels B (i.e. as each bike is sold to the customer). Now if Bike B + Wheels A tests faster than the Bike A + Wheels A combo, we say "aha! now we know that the real winners here are Frame B and Wheels A." But that's all we know. We're going to have to test all combinations across framesets, wheels and tires (see below) to know the truly fastest "bike system." And even if you know that Frame B and Wheels A are the winners of our 2-bike face-off, does that mean that Bike B (with the faster Frame B) is "faster" then Bike A? Well no, not when you look at what the customer is buying. In order for Bike B to be faster than Bike A, the Bike B consumer must buy Wheels A and ditch the Wheels B that came with their Frame B. So we end up going back to the idea of trying to tease out the fastest combination of frameset, wheels and tires across all manufacturers, and that hardly seems the same as the question "which bike is fastest?"

Problems with approach #2: So now we say, let's "standardize" things and test all the bikes with Wheels A. Well what happens if Bike C (sold with Wheels C) is slower when you pair up Frame C with our currently "fastest" Wheels A? At some point, different wheels will all interact differently with different frames, different tires, and so if you try to "standardize" these components, you are going to help one frame and hurt another. Really what we would all ultimately like to see would be an "infinite combination" testing, which would lay out for you every permutation of frameset, wheel and tire (including different widths) - but that is just terribly unrealistic.
EVO1 | 5.37kg
EVO3 | 6.51kg
SystemSix | 8.01kg
P5 | 9070 Di2 | SISL2 SRM | Enve 7.8/FFWD Falcon | Roval 321
T1 | P2Max Type S | Rolf Prima FX58/Zipp Super 9 Disc

by Weenie


Discodan
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by Discodan

Agree with that, comparing the bikes as they come off the showroom floor is fair as that’s what most people will be buying. It will also encourage manufacturers to lift their game on the wheelset they spec on their builds and to improve their in-house wheels. Likewise the 23 vs 25 tyres, that’s just what they left the showroom with so it’s fair to compare them


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