New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

Moderator: robbosmans

mrlobber
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:36 am
Location: Where the permanent autumn is

by mrlobber

Damon, let me ask this once more:

So Cannondale tested Vittoria Rubino Pro Speed as the fastest "overall" tire on Knot64 wheels? (that is, rolling resistance + aero). Even faster than Vittoria Corsa Speed?
Did you test the Turbo Cottons on Specialized bike/wheels and how were the results (assuming you were not allowed to put them on your wheels? :D)

Any thoughts if these Rubino performance findings would apply to other than Knot64 wheels as well? Or was it just that you, let's say, accidentally discovered that Rubinos interact with Knot64 very well?
Minimum bike categories required in the stable:
Aero bike | GC bike | GC rim bike | Climbing bike | Climbing rim bike | Classics bike | Gravel bike | TT bike | Indoors bike

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



pjaren
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:26 pm

by pjaren

Hi Damon--

First, thanks for being here and answering questions from random Internet people. And congratulations on a massive three-year engineering feat with a ton of thought to details! My detail questions:

--Does the seatpost have a zero-setback option? Even with the steep seat angle, my own weird biomechanics may not work with so much setback -- this is of course just me, a random Internet person.
--Would you happen to know the reach and drop of the bar, and the angle of the stem? And would they be available aftermarket, even if just as an upgrade to the standard modulus models? (Assuming electronic shifting.)

Cheers!

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

mrlobber wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:02 pm
Damon, let me ask this once more:

So Cannondale tested Vittoria Rubino Pro Speed as the fastest "overall" tire on Knot64 wheels? (that is, rolling resistance + aero). Even faster than Vittoria Corsa Speed?
Did you test the Turbo Cottons on Specialized bike/wheels and how were the results (assuming you were not allowed to put them on your wheels? :D)

Any thoughts if these Rubino performance findings would apply to other than Knot64 wheels as well? Or was it just that you, let's say, accidentally discovered that Rubinos interact with Knot64 very well?
Hi mrlobber,

Sorry, I must have missed you asking a first time. Yes, total resistance = wind resistance + rolling resistance.

I could check when I'm back in the office, but from memory, the Corsa Speed and Rubino Speed were the same within measurement tolerance, the Corsa because of slightly lower Crr and the Rubino because of lower aero drag. We scanned both tire shapes and the Corsa (as typical of handmade "open tubular" tires) is fairly circular plus the tread step, while the Rubinos have a somewhat parabolic tread thickness a lot like the vaunted Conti GP4KsII. So although we haven't tested it on a variety of rims (that wasn't one of the questions on our run list) it wouldn't surprise me if the Rubinos eventually became known as another "magic" aero tire.

I don't remember much about the Turbo cottons. We had them there of course as they come stock on the Spesh, but as you mentioned no chance we'd spec them, so I'm not even sure we included them in the wheel runs with other tire swaps. (Not to single out Specialized, we also didn't include some other tires as well.) Regardless, they don't have the low CRR of the Corsa Speed, and they don't have the nice parabolic shape of the Rubino, so my guess is they wouldn't top either of those two tires anyway.

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

pjaren wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:42 pm
Hi Damon--

First, thanks for being here and answering questions from random Internet people. And congratulations on a massive three-year engineering feat with a ton of thought to details! My detail questions:

--Does the seatpost have a zero-setback option? Even with the steep seat angle, my own weird biomechanics may not work with so much setback -- this is of course just me, a random Internet person.
--Would you happen to know the reach and drop of the bar, and the angle of the stem? And would they be available aftermarket, even if just as an upgrade to the standard modulus models? (Assuming electronic shifting.)

Cheers!
Hi pjaren,

My pleasure.

- Anticipating your fit needs, we're just starting a project for a zero offset seatpost (or close to zero) but it doesn't yet have a delivery date.
- Stem angle is horizontal to the ground.
- Bar reach & drop are typical of many compact handlebars. I'm not in the office, but from memory about 75-80mm of reach & about 125-130mm of drop. The curve of handlebar drops in general has matured quite a bit over the last years, so we didn't do anything radical here, should feel very familiar to most riders. The cross section in the drops has a nice anatomical flat on top to reduce hand pressure.
- Stems and bars will be available for purchase aftermarket, either for upgrading or for swapping out during a bike fitting session. This is one of the benefits of a two-piece bar and stem over a one-piece barstem. And the bar & stem work with both mechanical and electric shift systems.

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

smartyiak
Posts: 343
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:20 pm

by smartyiak

I’m just popping in to thank Damon. I’ve seen him answer multitudes of questions on multiple forums. I think that’s pretty awesome. It also makes the Cannondale more appealing to me.

User avatar
C36
Posts: 2468
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Damon,
Thanks for all your answers.
Looking at the geometry I see you keep the 405mm chainstay length despite the wider rear hub. Isn’t Shimano recommending something longer (415mm?)
Is there a mechanical bumper when the bar reach the max 50deg or that’s just the brakes lines that make the « stop »?

Finally... probably not under you but why the h... did Cannondale put their logo in such a way? Already see the « Annondale » joke all over the web.


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

Hi smartyiak,

Thanks for the kind words. The SystemSix is a big departure for Cannondale. There is a lot of new stuff to understand and I'm happy to help.

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

C36 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:49 pm
Damon,
Thanks for all your answers.
Looking at the geometry I see you keep the 405mm chainstay length despite the wider rear hub. Isn’t Shimano recommending something longer (415mm?)
Is there a mechanical bumper when the bar reach the max 50deg or that’s just the brakes lines that make the « stop »?

Finally... probably not under you but why the h... did Cannondale put their logo in such a way? Already see the « Annondale » joke all over the web.


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk
Hi C36,

You're welcome.

Yes, but we like the handling with 405mm chainstays better (it is a racing bike after all), and you only give up (maybe) one gear in the small chainring.

The steering stop is a metal pin in the down tube, not the hydraulic hoses themselves. The pin protects them at the limit.

Ha ha, "Annondale." Yes, I have no idea. "There's no such thing as bad publicity"? Possibly we could see a quick graphic update in the next batch? When I'm back in the office maybe I'll find out... :-)

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

CAAD8FRED
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:52 pm

by CAAD8FRED

Damon,

How does comfort stack up against other aero bikes? Also, can someone fit a Vision Metron 5D onto the ultegra mechanical and internally run the cables?

Cheers,

Rob

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

CAAD8FRED wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:44 am
Damon,

How does comfort stack up against other aero bikes? Also, can someone fit a Vision Metron 5D onto the ultegra mechanical and internally run the cables?

Cheers,

Rob
Hi Rob (great username by the way, I also have a CAAD8!),

Frameset comfort, which is vertical stiffness at the saddle (measured at Zedler per TOUR protocol), is 262 N/mm, about half as rigid as many aero road frames. So about twice as comfortable.

That said, tire inflation pressure is where most bikes gain the most comfort, and the wide Knot64 wheels tolerate wider tires well (aerodynamically), and the SystemSix frame accepts up to 30mm tires, thus you get the opportunity to run lower inflation pressure for even more comfort if you like.

For handlebars, yes the Vision 5D is what a lot of EF-Drapac p/b Cannondale pros are riding. It's a great fast handlebar and works well with the SystemSix. All cables are internal in the handlebar, and can physically fit into the frame at the head tube, but in our testing the mechanical shift housing can get bent too tight for perfect shifting, so we recommend running shift housing into the frame at the down tube's switchplate instead.

You can see how that looks on the SystemSix web page: three of the models are set up with mechanical shifting.

https://www.cannondale.com/en/USA/Produ ... 4cac8e7b38

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

CAAD8FRED
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:52 pm

by CAAD8FRED

:thumbup:
DamonRinard wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:30 am
CAAD8FRED wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:44 am
Damon,

How does comfort stack up against other aero bikes? Also, can someone fit a Vision Metron 5D onto the ultegra mechanical and internally run the cables?

Cheers,

Rob
Hi Rob (great username by the way, I also have a CAAD8!),

Frameset comfort, which is vertical stiffness at the saddle (measured at Zedler per TOUR protocol), is 262 N/mm, about half as rigid as many aero road frames. So about twice as comfortable.

That said, tire inflation pressure is where most bikes gain the most comfort, and the wide Knot64 wheels tolerate wider tires well (aerodynamically), and the SystemSix frame accepts up to 30mm tires, thus you get the opportunity to run lower inflation pressure for even more comfort if you like.

For handlebars, yes the Vision 5D is what a lot of EF-Drapac p/b Cannondale pros are riding. It's a great fast handlebar and works well with the SystemSix. All cables are internal in the handlebar, and can physically fit into the frame at the head tube, but in our testing the mechanical shift housing can get bent too tight for perfect shifting, so we recommend running shift housing into the frame at the down tube's switchplate instead.

You can see how that looks on the SystemSix web page: three of the models are set up with mechanical shifting.

https://www.cannondale.com/en/USA/Produ ... 4cac8e7b38

Cheers,
Damon
Thanks! If I get a SystemSix it’ll probably be the Ultegra mechanical, which is why I was asking about Metron 5Ds to totally integrate it. If you are with Cannondale in CT and ever happen to go riding by Old Lyme let me know.

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

Hi Rob,

Yep, I'm in CT. We did a great ride from Old Lyme about a year ago, up to Devil's Hopyard and stopping at the Gillette Castle on the way back. Some great riding you have there!

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

bikesrdangerousmmk
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:54 am

by bikesrdangerousmmk

DamonRinard wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:53 pm
Hi Rob,

Yep, I'm in CT. We did a great ride from Old Lyme about a year ago, up to Devil's Hopyard and stopping at the Gillette Castle on the way back. Some great riding you have there!

Cheers,
Damon
Apologies if I missed it, but do you have a link to all the specs on the knot64s? I’m curious what the manufacturing strategy was and the type of partnership you are using to source the wheels—e.g., the OEM’s history and rep in the bike space.

On the frames, when, if at all, do you anticipate being able to offer framesets?

Bike looks very intersting. Thanks

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

Hi bikesrdangerousmmk,

There are several paragraphs about the Knot64 wheels in the SystemSix white paper, starting in the section "HollowGram KNØT64 Wheelset".

Here's the white paper direct link: https://www.cannondale.com/~/media/File ... epaper.pdf

The white paper is also linked from the SystemSix web page: https://www.cannondale.com/en/USA/Produ ... 4cac8e7b38

Here's a nutshell summary of wheel specs:
HollowGram KNØT64 Wheelset
Rim Max Outer Width 32 mm
Rim Bead Width 21 mm
Spoke Count (F/R) 20/24
Weight (F/R) 765/877 g

The design is our own, as described in the white paper, and we've partnered with a Taiwanese company who makes some of the best brand name rims and wheels, to manufacture the wheels for us.

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



CAAD8FRED
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:52 pm

by CAAD8FRED

DamonRinard wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:29 am
Hi bikesrdangerousmmk,

There are several paragraphs about the Knot64 wheels in the SystemSix white paper, starting in the section "HollowGram KNØT64 Wheelset".

Here's the white paper direct link: https://www.cannondale.com/~/media/File ... epaper.pdf

The white paper is also linked from the SystemSix web page: https://www.cannondale.com/en/USA/Produ ... 4cac8e7b38

Here's a nutshell summary of wheel specs:
HollowGram KNØT64 Wheelset
Rim Max Outer Width 32 mm
Rim Bead Width 21 mm
Spoke Count (F/R) 20/24
Weight (F/R) 765/877 g

The design is our own, as described in the white paper, and we've partnered with a Taiwanese company who makes some of the best brand name rims and wheels, to manufacture the wheels for us.

Cheers,
Damon
How much will a Knot 64 wheelset cost?

Post Reply