New cannondale SYSTEMSIX road frame!

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Bordcla
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:42 pm

by Bordcla

Damon, how big a set of tires can the new SystemSix swallow? 28mm Cinti GP 4000s in wide wheels (love my Enve 4.5 ARs...)?

by Weenie


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wingguy
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by wingguy

jever98 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:51 pm
It's really smart IMHO. You get over the major hurdle of being chosen and installed and you don't increase the sticker price of the bike.
That's the thing though - did it?

Question for Damon, is did P2M give Cannondale the physical hardware completely free of charge? Because if they charged Cannondale anything for them, then it did increase the sticker price of the bike. Or it led to a reduction in quality somewher else.

jever98
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Location: Seattle

by jever98

I'm pretty sure they won't divulge business details. The approach they use is used with cars, too - e.g., Tesla installing bigger batteries than you use, if you want to use additional capacity, you upgrade against a fee.
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No longer in the industry

topflightpro
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:35 am

by topflightpro

I read somewhere else that the "activation fee" is being set up to be serve as a dealer incentive, so the LBS can throw in the activation as a way to sweeten the deal.

DamonRinard
in the industry
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Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

Bordcla wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:07 pm
Damon, how big a set of tires can the new SystemSix swallow? 28mm Cinti GP 4000s in wide wheels (love my Enve 4.5 ARs...)?
Hi Bordcla,

The SystemSix fits up to 30 mm tires (measured, not labelled), so I'm guessing your 28C Contis on ARs might be too wide. Can you measure the installed width?

Cheers,
Damon
Last edited by DamonRinard on Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

wingguy wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:25 pm
Question for Damon, is did P2M give Cannondale the physical hardware completely free of charge? Because if they charged Cannondale anything for them, then it did increase the sticker price of the bike. Or it led to a reduction in quality somewher else.
Hi wingguy,

As jever98 mentioned, we don't share internal pricing, as I'm sure you can understand.

The two main advantages of the P2M being installed OE are, first, it saves the rider money. How much would it cost to take off a SpideRing and buy a P2M spider (and chainrings) aftermarket, plus install it?

Second, it also simplifies the whole powermeter compatibility confusion. It's clearly 100% compatible (it's already installed), no clearance issues, no worries about BBs or spacers, etc.

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

ParisCarbon
Posts: 1918
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:39 am
Location: Winnipeg Canada

by ParisCarbon

What I gotta ask is.. you go all out on the bike..... and then take the lower model PM... anyone already spending $14500 Canadian , an extra $500 bucks at that point is the least of my concerns... Id be more concerned about the interest rate the bank is chargin me!

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

My problem with the deal is someone has to subsidize it, whether it's the consumer, Cannondale, P2M or some combination of all 3. If the consumer is at all paying extra for a deactivated product, then that's simply a bad deal since they have to pay basically full price for activation anyway. If the consumer isn't paying for some of the dormant hardware, then one of the brands is at least temporarily losing out on margins until someone pays.

wingguy
Posts: 4318
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

DamonRinard wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:32 pm
As jever98 mentioned, we don't share internal pricing, as I'm sure you can understand.
Sure, but then I'm sure you cn understand you'll have a hard time convincing people they aren't paying for something twice.
The two main advantages of the P2M being installed OE are, first, it saves the rider money. How much would it cost to take off a SpideRing and buy a P2M spider (and chainrings) aftermarket, plus install it?
$590, plus chainrings, minus $100 for the SL Spidering on ebay. So - whatever the cost of the chainrings you'd have chosen otherwise is the saving of doing it your way.... if P2M gave you the hardware for free. And you're not going to tell us if they did or not.

Effectively, we can't make the comparison without the information you can't divulge. And that's the problem with this approach.

(IMO, anyway. To be fair I thought the Cervelo approach of selling bikes with Enve rims on Formula hubs was going to bomb but it's actually done quite well.)

jever98
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Location: Seattle

by jever98

@wingguy: what you say would be true if bike sticker prices were the sum of components, which they aren't necessarily. A more useful comparison, imo, is whether the SystemSix is higher or lower in price than another, similarly specced aero road bike. That allows you to come to a decision whether it's attractive or not.
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Bordcla
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Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:42 pm

by Bordcla

DamonRinard wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:27 pm
Bordcla wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:07 pm
Damon, how big a set of tires can the new SystemSix swallow? 28mm Cinti GP 4000s in wide wheels (love my Enve 4.5 ARs...)?
Hi Bordcla,

The SystemSix fits up to 30 mm tires (measured, not labelled), so I'm guessing your 28C Contis on ARs might be too wide. Can you measure the installed width?

Cheers,
Damon
Hi Damon,

I don't own a vernier caliper but based on my imperfect measuring technique and the wheelset specs, I'd say a width of approximately 31 mm. It's the tire height, or circumference that is close to the limit on my bike (i.e., radial clearance) with that set-up...

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

jever98 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:16 am
@wingguy: what you say would be true if bike sticker prices were the sum of components, which they aren't necessarily. A more useful comparison, imo, is whether the SystemSix is higher or lower in price than another, similarly specced aero road bike. That allows you to come to a decision whether it's attractive or not.

He’s not really talking about the sticker price. He’s talking about the cost of having a functioning power meter on the bike. It costs an additional 490€/$490 to activate the NGEco on top of the retail price of the bike. In addition, no matter what there is a BoM cost to the hardware and it’s being paid for by one or multiple parties.

gwilson
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:41 am
Location: Canada

by gwilson

Hi Damon,
I understand how the knot 64 rims allow the stock Vittoria 23mm tires to measure 26mm with their wide rims, but what about the base model System Six (Ultegra non-Hi Mod) which comes with Fulcrum wheels? It still comes with 23mm tires and the tech specs still say they will measure 26mm, but how is that possible since a quick google of the Fulcrums it comes with shows they aren't as wide as the knot 64s.

DamonRinard
in the industry
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Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

Bordcla wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:48 am
I don't own a vernier caliper but based on my imperfect measuring technique and the wheelset specs, I'd say a width of approximately 31 mm. It's the tire height, or circumference that is close to the limit on my bike (i.e., radial clearance) with that set-up...
Hi Bordcla,

Close, but won't "officially" work. And you're right to notice height as well as width. GP4KsII are some of the tallest tires we've measured.

"Unofficially," it could still be possible. Guys in the office are riding wider tires, up to 32mm in one case, but with less than recommended clearance.

FYI, the ISO requires at least 4mm clearance at the time the bike is sold. So during design, we add extra for frame alignment tolerance, wheel runout, tire wobble, paint thickness, etc. so in some individual cases you can fit wider tires than we claim. But to be official 30mm is what we promise.

After the bike is sold, the ISO doesn't care anymore: it's yours and you can install whatever tires you like. :-) If you're happy with less than 4mm clearance you can choose a little wider tire. I rode for years with about 2mm, but in dry conditions.

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

by Weenie


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Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

gwilson wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:44 am
Hi Damon,
I understand how the knot 64 rims allow the stock Vittoria 23mm tires to measure 26mm with their wide rims, but what about the base model System Six (Ultegra non-Hi Mod) which comes with Fulcrum wheels? It still comes with 23mm tires and the tech specs still say they will measure 26mm, but how is that possible since a quick google of the Fulcrums it comes with shows they aren't as wide as the knot 64s.
Hi gwilson,

Wow, I think you've caught a mistake on our website. I checked the Fulcrum page and the rim inside width is 17mm, not as wide as the Knot64 (21mm). The rule of thumb we've found from measuring lots of tires is that the tire width changes by about half the difference in rim width. 17 is 4 less than 21, so the tire should get 2mm narrower, or 24 not 26mm wide.

Reference: https://www.fulcrumwheels.com/en/wheels ... acing-4-DB

Thanks for pointing that out, I'll see about updating our site.

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

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