Imagine if Giant had a sub brand for the SL models, so people could buy a Pro-Tour level TCR or Propel without other riders loking at it and going "oh it's 'just' a Giant"
tour mag aero test 2018
Moderator: robbosmans
Not even being facetious, but I think creating the S-Works sub-brand was a stroke of absolute genius. It's a big incentive to upsell people onto top tier models, then whenever other people see them out riding you can see they've got a top tier model, while with other bikes you wouldn't necessarily notice. That in turn creates the impression there are more top tier Spesh's out there than anything else which again is good advertising for the brand as a whole.
Imagine if Giant had a sub brand for the SL models, so people could buy a Pro-Tour level TCR or Propel without other riders loking at it and going "oh it's 'just' a Giant"
Imagine if Giant had a sub brand for the SL models, so people could buy a Pro-Tour level TCR or Propel without other riders loking at it and going "oh it's 'just' a Giant"
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I say this as someone who owns two Specialized and an S-Works and have owned quite a few other Specs. Specialized is a marketing company that happens to sell bikes. I am super happy with most of the bikes that I've owned from them, but they are more heavy into the marketing side than any other brand. I think as a result of this, in general their bikes over overpriced unless you are comparing to the 'Italian' brands, but still high quality. Most people I know also don't pay retail for them.wingguy wrote: ↑Sun May 06, 2018 8:33 pmNot even being facetious, but I think creating the S-Works sub-brand was a stroke of absolute genius. It's a big incentive to upsell people onto top tier models, then whenever other people see them out riding you can see they've got a top tier model, while with other bikes you wouldn't necessarily notice. That in turn creates the impression there are more top tier Spesh's out there than anything else which again is good advertising for the brand as a whole.
Imagine if Giant had a sub brand for the SL models, so people could buy a Pro-Tour level TCR or Propel without other riders loking at it and going "oh it's 'just' a Giant"
I don't think it's quite fair to call them a marketing company. They seem to do quite a bit of engineering.
Yes, their bikes are on the more expensive side, at least in the US, because of the fact they are only available at authorized dealers. At least you get a lifetime warranty and good support.
Yes, their bikes are on the more expensive side, at least in the US, because of the fact they are only available at authorized dealers. At least you get a lifetime warranty and good support.
I just want to understand why the X-Lite has such a low drag - makes no sense to me and if it is correct, the weight of the big tubed aero frames and forks will eat up the few watts saved and would only be a tad faster on flat time trials. 
As for Specialized: The Tarmac SL 6 was designed by Peter Denk who also developed the Scott CR1/Addict and Cannondale SuperSix Evo, the man knows what he does. I even think the at first promoted 733g might have been right for the prototypes but the manufacturing is not that precise as it should be for a $3,600 frameset. If you opt for a certain weight you will produce a lot more waste and cost increase dramatically.
https://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/ ... ogy-30298/
As for Specialized: The Tarmac SL 6 was designed by Peter Denk who also developed the Scott CR1/Addict and Cannondale SuperSix Evo, the man knows what he does. I even think the at first promoted 733g might have been right for the prototypes but the manufacturing is not that precise as it should be for a $3,600 frameset. If you opt for a certain weight you will produce a lot more waste and cost increase dramatically.
https://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/ ... ogy-30298/
I agree with you. This is very odd. Basically, from what I can gather, there are only 2-3 watts of difference between full-aero machine(which has placed top3 on pretty much all aero tests) and X-Lite. I honestly thought the difference will be bigger. Am I missing something?Beaver wrote: ↑Sun May 06, 2018 8:00 pmThe gallery shows the numbers with stock wheels: www.tour-magazin.de/raeder/rennraeder/r ... 08636.html
So 211 watts and only one watt difference to the X-Lite (with the more aero 404 FC instead of 454 NSW maybe two watt). Seems quite odd.
According to Bontrager their 28mm high Aeolus XXX rim has also less drag than Zipp's 45mm 303 NSW:
https://bikerumor.com/wp-content/upload ... aper_3.pdf
It's all quite weird right now.
But at least I could understand that, if they used 25mm tires for testing. The 17C Zipp rims, which are also narrower at the brake track, will have a worse transition between tire and rim. And of course they "forgot" to test the 21C Enve 3.4 SES.
So the X-lite with Bontrager XXX 2 would be as fast as an Canyon Aeroad with 303 NSW.
https://bikerumor.com/wp-content/upload ... aper_3.pdf
It's all quite weird right now.
But at least I could understand that, if they used 25mm tires for testing. The 17C Zipp rims, which are also narrower at the brake track, will have a worse transition between tire and rim. And of course they "forgot" to test the 21C Enve 3.4 SES. So the X-lite with Bontrager XXX 2 would be as fast as an Canyon Aeroad with 303 NSW.
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Yeah but I was too distracted by the hysteresis losses to notice the length of the poddy breaks.loisebond23 wrote: ↑Tue May 08, 2018 9:04 amHello Everyone,
Has anyone taken a Trafalgar tour? Am doing resear/h that my TA doesn't seem to have time for. Looking for CA coast tour where one isnot confined to a bus for 4 to 5 hrs with only 2 15 min poddy breaks.
Customer service says that their tours stop once an hour or ecery 90 min.
Evo 4.9kg SL3 6.64kg Slice RS 8.89kg viewtopic.php?f=10&t=110579" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They even used the same 25mm tires, but Zipp 303 Disc are 21C and 29.9mm wide, the 303 FC only 17C and 28.5mm (26.4mm at brake track) wide.spartan wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:35 ama straight out comparison between Dogma F10 vs F10 disc. the bike had zipp 303 vs zipp 303 disc
Dogma F10 disc 214 watts 7.5 kg
Dogma F10XL 213 watts 7 kg
ability to ride wider tires with superior rolling resistance the 1 watt diff is all but eliminated.
only issue with aero + disc is weight.
That would be a few watts more difference with the same rims. And all aerobikes had a better wheel/tire combination than the racebikes...
No error in the wind tunnel, again the wheels: The first 202 watts run was with Mavic CXR Ultimate 60 C (25.5mm wide at brake track) and 23mm tires, so a much better combination than the 303 FC with 25mm Corsa tires. Firecrest doesn't like wide tires.cunn1n9 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:05 amEverytime they run these tests the data seems to change slightly. They did a test a while back on the F10 and found it was as fast as the Madone. Now there is a different result. There is not a big difference which tells me that the margin of error in the wind tunnel is probably around 10W and that all the bikes in the top tier - Madone, F8/10, S5, etc are so close it doesn't matter.
Thoughts?
Yes too far a leap to call them a marketing company, but definitely one of the strongest if not strongest marketing within the industry. ProTour sponsorships, ad campaigns, media coverage... remember the buzz around their wind tunnel?
Specialized Tarmac Sworks SL6, Moots Compact, Carl Strong Titanium
I used to ride specialized hate wagon but after riding sl6 (bough it myself) and interviewing peter denk the guy behind the design, i change my view completely. Denk is one of the brightest mind in bike’s industry. He agreed to do long term contract as design consultant for specialized and even said that working here in terms of engineering is as good as its get. Coming from a guy who developed tube-to-tube and many carbon bike construction process, i would rate his opinion higher than random internet comments
Sl6 is really good compared to other top model from competing brands. I cant say the same for their older bikes. The Vias rim rode well but has too many compromises.
What this shows is that a bike is as good as its engineer, designer. Generally we don’t know who because brand wont go out of the way to advertise the name behind the model, but each project tend to have different engineer as lead. One of the senior Cervelo engineer i interviewed who’s behind the new R5 (another great bike) said there were many things he didnt like in the old r5, which was not his design and would have done it differently.
Specialized is very good at marketing. Probably the best, if not overtly so some of the times. And not all of their products are as good as claimed, but this apply to most if not all of the brands. They tend to get less heat because they dont boast so much.
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Sl6 is really good compared to other top model from competing brands. I cant say the same for their older bikes. The Vias rim rode well but has too many compromises.
What this shows is that a bike is as good as its engineer, designer. Generally we don’t know who because brand wont go out of the way to advertise the name behind the model, but each project tend to have different engineer as lead. One of the senior Cervelo engineer i interviewed who’s behind the new R5 (another great bike) said there were many things he didnt like in the old r5, which was not his design and would have done it differently.
Specialized is very good at marketing. Probably the best, if not overtly so some of the times. And not all of their products are as good as claimed, but this apply to most if not all of the brands. They tend to get less heat because they dont boast so much.
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Peter Denk is the Gary Klein of carbon. 
But the frames should be lighter in mass production for that price point. And with a "real" Kamm tail downtube the SL6 would be closer to the Rose X-Lite aerodynamically - but I guess that's on purpose to keep distance to the Venge...
But the frames should be lighter in mass production for that price point. And with a "real" Kamm tail downtube the SL6 would be closer to the Rose X-Lite aerodynamically - but I guess that's on purpose to keep distance to the Venge...Much like ichobi, I was not a fan of the big S ever since starting to mountain bike in the mid 90s. Either engineering or by value, there were better options.
I went with tarmac Sl6 disc even though it was not even on my short list.
Why? They had a beautiful solid bike that handles wonderfully and had everything in a single package.
Didn't have anything proprietary (other than d shaped seatpost which everyone does) and could easily swap parts and modify.
They gone even better with the stumpy.. Threaded bb!
They are going in a really good direction and I hope they continue. Regardless, I'm going to loving my tarmac for years to come.
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I went with tarmac Sl6 disc even though it was not even on my short list.
Why? They had a beautiful solid bike that handles wonderfully and had everything in a single package.
Didn't have anything proprietary (other than d shaped seatpost which everyone does) and could easily swap parts and modify.
They gone even better with the stumpy.. Threaded bb!
They are going in a really good direction and I hope they continue. Regardless, I'm going to loving my tarmac for years to come.
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Being anti a brand always strikes me as odd. It's the end product that is the ultimate test and I think the investment Spesh made in their own wind tunnel has bought noticable gains across a chunk of their products. They are churning out nice kit, kudos to them.
