Shimano R9150 RD - Why so few direct mount hangers?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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wheelbuilder
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by wheelbuilder

XCProMD wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:20 pm
zank wrote:The reality is that nobody is going to design a frame solely for Shimano DM.
But this is the only reason Shimano has created this new standard. The others are able to give good chain wrap up to 32T with traditional hangers and no wheel removal issues Shimano could have done it too.

They already tried this with MTB’s, but the timing was wrong as SRAM came with real improvements (XX first, XX1 later) that gave them again a good slice of the OEM cake. Look how many MTB’s have DM dropouts these days. Fortunately for everyone but Shimano they failed.

Before eTap they were at an extremely high share of the road OEM market. So they tried it here. Fortunately for us, eTap will save us this time around. At least I hope so.

They tried it when we went all in with discs in MTB’s. They thought selling Dual Controls would make everyone spec only their complete groupsets. Fortunately they failed at that too.

Everybody in cries about how little money the cycling industry makes even when bikes are more expensive than ever adjusted to inflation. This is an inefficient business that remind as much of socialism in some aspects. But we fed this big behemoth since the late 70’s so it’s only our fault.






Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

Nice. ........and true.

pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

wheelbuilder wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:08 pm
Oh my goodness pdlpshr just let it go! You did not invent the pivot trick. This is done on every rear wheel removal of every bike with a rear derailleur (regardless of brand or model) since the beginning of time! It is part of the mechanics and muscle memory of removing a rear wheel.
Before I got my shadow RD I never had to touch the RD when removing the wheel. The shadow RD does require this extra step even on bikes without a tight frame geometry. Maybe it's obvious to you and Cal who work on bikes every day. But to those new to the shadow RD (me included) it's not as intuitive as you might think. So yes, for me it was a Eureka moment even for my frame which doesn't have a tight geometry.


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Calnago
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by Calnago

For the record... I don't "work on bikes every day". In fact, I've never worked in a bike shop. But bikes are my hobby, obsession perhaps,... and the whole mechanic thing has kind of taken on a life of it's own I suppose.

But if there's anyone still following this, you must have more than a passing interest in wanting to know "how things work" and a desire to have your bike adjusted as perfectly as possible. I had the opportunity to play around with a bike before the chain was cut and with the Shadow Dura Ace derailleur and an 11/28 cassette. I thought I'd set it up perfectly and take a few pics what the arrangement should look like when all is set up as it should be. The drive train consists of standard 39/53 rings up front and 11 spd 11/28 cassette at the rear. I played around with the correct length chain and experimented with what would happen if the chain was a tad too long (didn't bother with too short as that would rip off the derailleur). It's a Di2 system so in order to be able to just manually move the chain from the big ring and the small ring, I just taped the front derailleur out of the way for a bit, so I could have the chain on small/small easily for purposes of some pics. Here's some pics of how things should look with the correct length chain, and the B-screw adjusted properly...

Combo 1: Small ring/small cog....
Image


Combo 1 Closeup Small ring/Small cog: Note the interface with the cassette and chain and upper pulley... in all cases that I show note how far forward of the rear axle the upper pulley is, and also how close I can get it to the cogs themselves, regardless of the drivetrain combinations...
Image


Combo 2: Small ring/Large cog...
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Combo 2: Closeup Small ring/Large cog...
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Combo 3: Large ring/Small cog...
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Combo 3: Closeup Large ring/Small cog...
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Combo 4: Large ring/Large cog...
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Combo 4: Closeup Large ring/Large cog...
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There you have it, a perfectly set up and adjusted Shimano drivetrain. No Direct Mount hanger... just the regular hanger and the provided B-Link from Shimano. The setup is identical in both cases, as the derailleur is positioned in the same exact place no matter if you have a DM hanger or a regular hanger plus the B-link (I suppose there could be very minor differences due to slight differences in the regular hangers' designs, but these should be very small). In conclusion, once again, the minor annoyance in rear wheel removal over previous versions is the tradeoff for having the derailleur top pulley so far forward of the rear axle, and that has nothing to do with whether a DM hanger or a regular hanger is used. But look at that wrap and engagement of the chain, all before the 6 o'clock position of the cogs. This makes for crisp, accurate and fast shifts. It's a delight on a fast road machine just clicking through the gears. I don't want to see the road bike morph into more mountain technology than road. Where technology is good under either scenario, then by all means share it. But don't just port if over carte blanche. Refine it for the road specifically. I'd be good with that. Don't force me to have 425mm and longer chainstays just so I can run fat tires, discs, and monster cassettes on my road bike. Please... don't do that. Lol Set up correctly, the new derailleurs from Shimano are great... just look at the pics above for evidence. They shift super smooth. There may be the odd frame here and there that really doesn't play well with the new stuff as far as wheel removal goes, so that should be paid close attention to for sure. On that note and before I forget, after playing with this one for a bit, and twisting and turning things without the chain on it and with the chain on it, I would strongly advise against any grinding away of the "stop" built into the B-link. I can see now why it's there... pulling the derailleur back farther than that stop puts a whole lot of stress on the pulley cage, and I was hearing unpleasant creaks and crackling noises when I experimented. That stop is there for a good reason. Paragon should have one on their hangers imo.

Having said all that, I have a very high end frame in front of me waiting for a build. Campagnolo EPS is going on it, but I've noticed that it may also fit most of the requirements for the "perfect storm" scenario I described earlier. So perhaps I'll slap a Shimano Shadow derailleur on it and just experiment a bit with it and report back here sometime over the next week or so.

Till next time...
Last edited by Calnago on Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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BdaGhisallo
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by BdaGhisallo

Calnago wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:08 pm
For the record... I don't "work on bikes every day". In fact, I've never worked in a bike shop. But bikes are my hobby, obsession perhaps,... and the whole mechanic thing has kind of taken on a life of it's own I suppose.


Till next time...
Thanks again for all your input on this topic. I have learned much.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Your're the original starter of this thread... it's all your fault! :lol:
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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

Combos 2 and 4 has the pulley to the cassette awfully close. Is it really supposed to be that close? I don't have mine setup to be that close and perhaps that's why my pulley is a bit further away from the cassette on the higher gears. I can certainly back out the B screw more but I'm afraid if I use combo 2 there will be quite a bit of noise if the gap is that tight. I don't use combo 4 anyways.

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zank
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by zank

As long as the chain isn't jamming, the closer the better.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Ok... I managed to get hold of a new 8000 GS derailleur and an 11/34 cassette. For completeness' sake, I thought I'd set it up and show the relevant chainring/cog combos. @Pdlphser1: WARNING!... You may want to pour yourself a big stiff drink before you sit down to have a look.

Combo 1: Large Chainring 52 / Largest Cog 34
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Combo 1 Closeup: Largest Chainring 52 / Largest Cog 34
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Combo 2: Small Chainring / Largest Cog 34
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Combo 2 Closeup: Small Chainring / Largest Cog 34
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Combo 3: Small Chainring 36/ Smallest Cog 11
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Combo 3 Closeup: Small Chainring 36/ Smallest Cog 11
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Combo 4: Large Chainring 52 / Smallest Cog 11
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Combo 4 Closeup: Large Chainring 52 / Smallest Cog 11
Image

So that's about it... all the relevant Shimano road combinations tested out and they all seem to work perfectly providing you know what you're doing to set it up and the derailler hanger is in the right place in space according to Shimano Hanger specs. It does not make any difference whether you are using a Direct Mount Hanger or the Regular Hanger plus the supplied B-Link (comes attached to the derialleur as standard). If you have a hanger made of cheese, that's never good of course. That was the case for this demo bike, which if you looked close enough (god knows the pics are big enough to see it) you can spot the Wheels Manufacturing logo on the hanger.

It's pretty cool what Shimano have been able to accomplish here. The tradeoff is that sometimes under certain conditions the wheel can be quite the pain in the ass to remove easily. Ah... the good ol' days. Long gone I'm afraid.

Cal
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wheelbuilder
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by wheelbuilder

Nice man! You got that upper pulley 3cm ahead of the axle!

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Calnago
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by Calnago

It’s not me. It’s just how it’s supposed to be. Of course, the derailleur needs to be where it needs to be but that’s a function of the hanger placement and frame design. But I find the new Shimano stuff super easy to set up right.
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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

I should mention a few things. I like to leave my chain long so my chain is the Dura Ace chain less only one link. Secondly I don’t have my B screw out very far because I don’t like the pulley being so close to the 34 cog. I can certainly shorten my chain and adjust the B screw so that the upper pulley is pulled forward. I will take a look at Shimano’s manual and see what they recommend. It’s just a personal preference that I don’t like the chain being pulled so tightly when in the big big combo. I’m afraid the RD will get ripped off, haha. I’ll probably just leave things as is. When my current chain wears out I will remove a link or two and do some experiments. But I don’t want to cut my current chain for the sake of experimenting. Also I still haven’t gotten my road DM hanger yet.


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Calnago
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by Calnago

That chain length in my photos above is perfect and is set according to Shimanos instructions. Follow them. There is nothing even remotely too short and nothing “too” close to the cogs. The whole chainlength and B-Screw adjustment is a balancing act. Learn what the B screw does with respect to chain length. What I show above is the longest chain possible before more length would actually degrade shifting, because you would have to tension the derailleur even more to take up the slack which in turn pulls the whole cage away from the cassette. That’s not what you want. And that’s why the GS cage even exists, so that you can keep everything as close to the cogs as possible without having to pull everything way back in order to clear the largest cogs. If you do that then shifting is really poor at the small cog end of the cassette.

I’d be curious to know if the new Road hanger is better. I’m sure it will be simply because the angle of the “hook” will be 10 degrees closer. But that’s just one aspect of it. The derailleur still has to be in the same point in space as specified by Shimano per the specs posted earlier in this thread. And that, is a frame/hanger issue.

If a tailor adjusted the length of your pants to perfectly match your shoes, would you say... “well ok... but I like my pants to be 3 inches above my socks, just cuz”. I don’t know, maybe you would. They’re your pants so you can wear them how you like.
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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

Perhaps my chain is too long. I do have very long chainstays (425mm) and hence I purposely left the chain long. But I will do some experiments with an old, shorter chain that I have. Yes I agree the chain length and B screw setting is a balancing act. Thanks for the photos and I'll definitely play with it more.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

It does not matter how long your chainstays are as that will all be taken into account when you wrap the chain around your largest sprocket and largest chainring, without going through the derailleur, then adding two links, or three, depending on how the outer/inner plates line up. There is one case where you have the option of adding 1 or 3 links. Don’t use the 1 link, as I think it’s not worth it, and safer to use 3. And don’t forget to take into account the quiklink as being one link.

This method is very different than the Campy method of setting the chain length with the chain on small/small and running through the derailleur. That chain will then accommodate all cassettes in the range, providing the chainrings don’t change.

But the thing about the Shimano method is that you’ll have the optimal chainlength for that particular setup, but it may not be optimal at all if you’re switching between cassettes of different sizes. In that case, you should have chains of different lengths to pair with cassettes of different sizes. But changing chains is super easy with Shimanos new QuikLink.
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TurboKoo
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by TurboKoo

Lot of information in this topic and I am not sure if I can add anything but let’s try.

Reason I think DM hanger makes easier wheel removal can be seen in this picture.

Image

Looking closely by Calnagos pictures you can see the old hanger design creating need for wheel to move slightly forward as it slides down the hanger. DM hanger doesn’t have this and thus allows wheel to drop down vertically direct.

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