About 4 years ago I purchased a C59 and built it up with Campy SR 11 speed and a campy SRM compact crank. The shifting performance of the bicycle is horrible since day 1 (e.g., inconsistent shifting, great on stand, horrible on ride, good at start of ride, horrible at end, etc...). The bike has been to three shops with significant campy experience for complete redos including new derailleur hangers just to be safe.
I am at the point where the bike is quite literally hidden in the basement closet. It was my 40th birthday present and it is killing me that this bike is so bad. My 11 year old 10 speed Record parts work 10000x better on another bike. On a crash repaired C50 frame, my 11 speed Chorus works a lot better (although not as good as 10 speed). What is the best path forward? I have already thrown a lot of $$$ towards fixing this bike. I want to start riding it again.
I am considering going to mechanical Dura Ace and/or going to SRAM etap. My C59 is a mechanical only frame so DI2 or EPS is out of the question at this point. Any suggestions on how to resolve this? My hunch is that etap may be the best party forward even though my other 3 bikes are Campy.
Need advice on path forward
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I'm no expert on this, and I run a mixture of Chorus and Veloce! However I've found the alignment of the rear derailleur hanger to be critical. Of three brand new frames I've bought all the hangers were significantly out of alignment and shifting improved considerably once the hangers were aligned properly. I guess the three shops you went to did check the alignment after replacing the hangers...
Yes they did. All three shops tested; two shops replaced, and third one said the 2nd shop had it spot on.Hawkwood wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:07 pmI'm no expert on this, and I run a mixture of Chorus and Veloce! However I've found the alignment of the rear derailleur hanger to be critical. Of three brand new frames I've bought all the hangers were significantly out of alignment and shifting improved considerably once the hangers were aligned properly. I guess the three shops you went to did check the alignment after replacing the hangers...
I heard from one user on here a while ago that he had similar problems and that the SR derailleur was actually the problem. At this point I don’t really want to invest any more money into Campy just to fix it. Dura Ace is pretty cheap these days...
How do you think eTap compares? Is it equal to DA mech? I’m also hoping that my campy 11 speed cassettes will work...
It's projects like this that I love to take on. Been to multiple shops and no one can fix it. Can't help you without seeing it, but I'm pretty sure I could get it running just fine if I had it in my greasy grimy hands for awhile. What exactly seems to be the worst part of things in your opinion? Did any of these shops just say... let's start over and remove the bar tape and go through everything... or at least the basics...
- Shift cable housings inserted fully into the levers.
- Campy derailleur housings (4.1mm, not 4.0 like some others).
- Shift cable routing... don't use the outer routing wherever possible, the bend is too acute.
- If the outer routing slot has been used, is the cable frayed? It will evenutally fray there, just like Shimano, if that routing has been used. But you said it's been bad since day one so this is probably unlikley.
- Might the cables have gotten twisted around each other in the downtube? This would definitely mess things up.
- Have liners been used under the bottom bracket, in particular for the front derailleur as it loops under and up and rubs on the bridge that the derailluer cable passes through on it's way up to the front derailluer?
- Of course, the derailleur hanger alignement is crucial, and you say it's been replaced, but maybe it's been bent so many times trying to dial things in that it's too soft and goes out of alignement easily.
- How is the cable routing done? Got any pics? Internally routed bars etc? Tight bends anywhere. Everything Campy, as far as the derailleur cables and housing etc., go?
- Small frame or large frame? Smaller frames can be a little trickier to route cables smoothly.
- As a last resort, it "could" be a derailluer issue, and yes, that was probably my thread that I created on a very rare, it would seem, but real issue with the derailleur cage itself being out of alignment. But that would be the last thing I looked at, unless you are sure the hanger is aligned perfectly and the chain still wants to ride off the inside of the lower pulley as it goes into the derialleur.
- Do you know what vintage 11spd stuff you have... if 2009, there's a couple of running changes that were made... 1) the bushing in the right derailleur was changed, not a big deal to swap that out. 2) If you're running a larger 29tooth cog, the ratchet wheel in derailleur cage pivot was modified with an extra hole to allow it to get to the larger cog, although I found that on a Colnago with it's hanger dimensions on the long side, this was not an issue. 3) The return spring on the rear derialleur was stiffened up a bit from it's orginal since there was could be some hesitation moving down the cassette on some setups. This you can't change but would just have to get a new derailleur.
- I'm assuming everything is prior to the 2015 version of stuff? And that it's all compatible with each other.
Again, without seeing it it's going to be really hard to fix, and sounds like you're pretty fed up with it all at this point. So I get that you might want to change. But if your shops just fiddled with the derailleur adjustment and hanger, without checking at the very least all I have mentioned, and then gave up, then you need to find a new shop. If I had that much difficulty setting up, I would pull everything off and start fresh, because something is definitely wrong somewhere.
Good luck.
- Shift cable housings inserted fully into the levers.
- Campy derailleur housings (4.1mm, not 4.0 like some others).
- Shift cable routing... don't use the outer routing wherever possible, the bend is too acute.
- If the outer routing slot has been used, is the cable frayed? It will evenutally fray there, just like Shimano, if that routing has been used. But you said it's been bad since day one so this is probably unlikley.
- Might the cables have gotten twisted around each other in the downtube? This would definitely mess things up.
- Have liners been used under the bottom bracket, in particular for the front derailleur as it loops under and up and rubs on the bridge that the derailluer cable passes through on it's way up to the front derailluer?
- Of course, the derailleur hanger alignement is crucial, and you say it's been replaced, but maybe it's been bent so many times trying to dial things in that it's too soft and goes out of alignement easily.
- How is the cable routing done? Got any pics? Internally routed bars etc? Tight bends anywhere. Everything Campy, as far as the derailleur cables and housing etc., go?
- Small frame or large frame? Smaller frames can be a little trickier to route cables smoothly.
- As a last resort, it "could" be a derailluer issue, and yes, that was probably my thread that I created on a very rare, it would seem, but real issue with the derailleur cage itself being out of alignment. But that would be the last thing I looked at, unless you are sure the hanger is aligned perfectly and the chain still wants to ride off the inside of the lower pulley as it goes into the derialleur.
- Do you know what vintage 11spd stuff you have... if 2009, there's a couple of running changes that were made... 1) the bushing in the right derailleur was changed, not a big deal to swap that out. 2) If you're running a larger 29tooth cog, the ratchet wheel in derailleur cage pivot was modified with an extra hole to allow it to get to the larger cog, although I found that on a Colnago with it's hanger dimensions on the long side, this was not an issue. 3) The return spring on the rear derialleur was stiffened up a bit from it's orginal since there was could be some hesitation moving down the cassette on some setups. This you can't change but would just have to get a new derailleur.
- I'm assuming everything is prior to the 2015 version of stuff? And that it's all compatible with each other.
Again, without seeing it it's going to be really hard to fix, and sounds like you're pretty fed up with it all at this point. So I get that you might want to change. But if your shops just fiddled with the derailleur adjustment and hanger, without checking at the very least all I have mentioned, and then gave up, then you need to find a new shop. If I had that much difficulty setting up, I would pull everything off and start fresh, because something is definitely wrong somewhere.
Good luck.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ
I think it shifts as well, with the front shifting being maybe slightly better on 9100 despite being mechanical. I haven't run SRAM rings with the eTap though, have done Rotor and Praxis Rings with the eTap, and Rotor, Praxis, and R9100 rings with the Shimano setup. I do like the shift configuration with eTap better if that makes a difference.
You can part out your Campy components on eBay.
Likely get most of the cost of DA 9100. DA 9000 still out there if you look around.
Some research will tell you if the cassette cog spacing will work between systems.
Likely get most of the cost of DA 9100. DA 9000 still out there if you look around.
Some research will tell you if the cassette cog spacing will work between systems.
Oldbie
Calnago,
It was your thread I was referring to and you actually PM’ed me about a year ago or so. I’ve been avoiding looking at this bike problem a few times.
While you have many questions listed, I would say that most have been addressed. I’ve had the cables and housing replaced. The last shop also swapped which side the cables are routed through the frame as a means to reduce stress on the cables. I bought another cassette (already had 3). That is why the costs skyrocketed because every time I attempted to fix this problem, we basically ripped it apart. I am several hundred dollars in spare parts and labor now into this after the initial build. This bike has never once worked properly. So in summary, the shops have essentially gone through a rebuild each time now.
This was all built and purchased winter of 2014. The entire build is Campy Super Record with a Chorus cassette.
The most frustrating thing is the expense and the fact that on the bike stand it can shift perfectly. It may even be great for the first 20 minutes of a ride and then boom... it hangs on an up shift or a downshift. Then it works great for 5-10 more minutes or it may not work the rest of the ride. It’s insane... Nothing is more frustrating than being in a fast pace line that is accelerating and then trying to downshift and only get a click click click click click click and then having to downshift again and then back up.
I will gather some pics to send. Appreciate the help! Thank you.
As for your suggestion to start fresh, that is what prompted me to go down this route with this thread. I am considering buying DA on sale or eTap and just be done with it.
It was your thread I was referring to and you actually PM’ed me about a year ago or so. I’ve been avoiding looking at this bike problem a few times.
While you have many questions listed, I would say that most have been addressed. I’ve had the cables and housing replaced. The last shop also swapped which side the cables are routed through the frame as a means to reduce stress on the cables. I bought another cassette (already had 3). That is why the costs skyrocketed because every time I attempted to fix this problem, we basically ripped it apart. I am several hundred dollars in spare parts and labor now into this after the initial build. This bike has never once worked properly. So in summary, the shops have essentially gone through a rebuild each time now.
This was all built and purchased winter of 2014. The entire build is Campy Super Record with a Chorus cassette.
The most frustrating thing is the expense and the fact that on the bike stand it can shift perfectly. It may even be great for the first 20 minutes of a ride and then boom... it hangs on an up shift or a downshift. Then it works great for 5-10 more minutes or it may not work the rest of the ride. It’s insane... Nothing is more frustrating than being in a fast pace line that is accelerating and then trying to downshift and only get a click click click click click click and then having to downshift again and then back up.
I will gather some pics to send. Appreciate the help! Thank you.
As for your suggestion to start fresh, that is what prompted me to go down this route with this thread. I am considering buying DA on sale or eTap and just be done with it.
Yes, I hear you. I'm sorry you can't seem to get it resolved. When completely crosschained in the stand, small/small... and you slowly pedal and pay careful attention to how the chain is entering the lower pulley, does it appear that the chain is wanting to ride off to the inside of the pulley at all?, or pull a bit on the pulley before it really drops down onto it's teeth? Have you, or the shop, ever actually tried swapping derailleurs? I know this can get expensive again, but it's really the only way to fully rule out the rear derailleur. It's what I ultimately did to confirm what I thought was happening was in fact happening. It was definitely the cage. I replace the cage and all was good. You could replace the derailleur as well. I eventually sent that faulty cage to Graeme in the UK and said "have at it", as I thought he would be the best person to really look at it. The trouble with this kind of stuff, is no one really believes it can be a faulty part, and it was really hard to tell (I couldn't tell even when the faulty cage was removed and put side by side a good cage).
Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention above but kind of took for granted is to ensure that the upper limit stop is not too far inboard, if it's slightly too far outboard, they could have probably adjusted for that simply with cable tension. But the rear derailleur really needs to be in the proper "starting" position to begin with.
But I can certainly sympathize with you, and in your shoes I'd probably just want to start over with something else. If I could look at it for you I would. Sorry.
Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention above but kind of took for granted is to ensure that the upper limit stop is not too far inboard, if it's slightly too far outboard, they could have probably adjusted for that simply with cable tension. But the rear derailleur really needs to be in the proper "starting" position to begin with.
But I can certainly sympathize with you, and in your shoes I'd probably just want to start over with something else. If I could look at it for you I would. Sorry.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ
Thanks again for the advice. The only thing we did not change out was the derailleur. We tried chains and everything else. Even tried two different types of cranks/sizes.
Let’s assume that there is nothing wrong with the frame and something is a little tweaked. If that is the case, would a solution like eTap be able to correct for minor imperfections in alignment? I thought I read that DI2 does self adjust as necessary. Does the SRAM solution do that too? That’s one of the reasons I am considering giving eTap a try.
Thanks again.
Let’s assume that there is nothing wrong with the frame and something is a little tweaked. If that is the case, would a solution like eTap be able to correct for minor imperfections in alignment? I thought I read that DI2 does self adjust as necessary. Does the SRAM solution do that too? That’s one of the reasons I am considering giving eTap a try.
Thanks again.
Well, at the very least, you should be able to take some comfort from the fact that:
1. There are a lot of guys running Campagnolo 11 with no problems;
2. There are a lot of guys running Colnagos with no problems; and,
3. There are a lot of guys running compact Campagnolo SRMs with no problems.
Somehow, there is a set-up issue.
My recommendation is to strip everything off (including the hanger), replace all of the consumables and reinstall. I would also recommend that you do that yourself, to ensure that it is done correctly, unless you can trust someone to do it right.
1. There are a lot of guys running Campagnolo 11 with no problems;
2. There are a lot of guys running Colnagos with no problems; and,
3. There are a lot of guys running compact Campagnolo SRMs with no problems.
Somehow, there is a set-up issue.
My recommendation is to strip everything off (including the hanger), replace all of the consumables and reinstall. I would also recommend that you do that yourself, to ensure that it is done correctly, unless you can trust someone to do it right.
Alex, I struggled with my first 11 speed groupset. It was just like you describe. I was always able to get 8, 9, and 10 speed adjusted perfectly on the first try and then I hardly ever needed to touch it again.
What you describe sounds like cable drag.
I used Calnago's techniques to fix mine. I also found this guide helpful:
http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/articl ... ers-24781/
I cut my cables perfectly
filed the ends flat
made sure the inner teflon liners were cut perfectly and that the holes were widened with an awl
make sure cables are installed to be kink free (even free of the most minor bend)
made sure the metal washers were inside the ergo levers
make cable bends during installation is as smooth as possible*.
*Ultimately, I think the biggest problem is internally routed bars. I'm going to redo my cables this winter and I'm going to skip the internal routing and just tape them under my bars.
What you describe sounds like cable drag.
I used Calnago's techniques to fix mine. I also found this guide helpful:
http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/articl ... ers-24781/
I cut my cables perfectly
filed the ends flat
made sure the inner teflon liners were cut perfectly and that the holes were widened with an awl
make sure cables are installed to be kink free (even free of the most minor bend)
made sure the metal washers were inside the ergo levers
make cable bends during installation is as smooth as possible*.
*Ultimately, I think the biggest problem is internally routed bars. I'm going to redo my cables this winter and I'm going to skip the internal routing and just tape them under my bars.
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^This... can't hurt to try if you've got a spare derailleur you can use. It's exactly how I was able to ultimately confirm it was somewhere in the derailleur (the cage to be specific). Even put the "bad" derailleur on a good bike and sure enough, it turned the good bike bad. So I was doubly sure.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ
