DA 9100 mechanical vs Ultegra Di2 R8000 - Build Advice

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
superdx
Posts: 516
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:27 pm

by superdx

fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:24 pm
pdlpsher1 wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:22 pm
fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:13 pm
Comparing di2 to mecanical is apples to oranges. preferences are personal. Really depends if you prefer the simplicity of mechanical or the techiness and shifting ease of di2. personally i like mechanical. electronic is anathema to what cycling should be in my book. others will of course differ. But in any response you are inviting that bias.
+1. I have both. And I could live with either system. I get occasional mis-shifts on my mechanical group but it's not like it ruined the fun of the ride.

I think what makes the decision so difficult for the OP is that he's comparing two systems that roughly costs the same, and each system has its pluses and minues :D
i was biking in france this sept and someone on a new di2 bike had a shifting failure nobody could figure out for a few hours. turns out a connector got loose. i'll stick with my 9000 mechanical. you can laugh at this , but this stuff does happen
Once you figure out what it is it's not exactly hard to push the cable in. When you think about it, the solution is a lot easier to fix than mechanical.

Hamfist
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:04 pm
Location: Bloomfield Hills, Michigan

by Hamfist

adilosnave wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:23 pm
Be careful combining the DA 9000 crankset with the latest Di2 front derailleurs. They aren't made to work perfectly together. Different spacing.
I have this setup on my road bike and works just fine. Shimano says that they're compatible. Compared to 9100 the 9000 big ring is in the same spot but the small ring is only .7mm from where the 9100 is.

by Weenie


Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Is anyone with an R8050 front mech able to measure the height and depth from the clamp bolt for me? I can't get the etap front mech high enough on the ViAS to run a 53t Q-ring and am tempted to sell the Etap and put R8050 on it

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rynogee
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:11 am
Location: DK

by rynogee

the latest Ultegra hydro mechanical shifter is heavy, and a bit bulbous. I had problems with it on a cx bike because the guts of it are very exposed to mud and crap, and the rubber hoods were really loose at the top (wouldn't sit in the grooves) and exposed and loose at the bottom. They also had a strange bite point and feel when braking. Repeated lever strokes in somewhat short succession changed the bite point (increasing firmness, less travel to the bite point). Not sure if this was a design 'feature' but I hated the feel (bite point different every time you pull the lever). I don't know if the same phenomenon applies to di2 hydro shifters (DA or ultegra).

I am moving to Ultegra di2 for cross/gravel bike. The shifters feel waaay nicer in the hand and are much lighter. Plus the guts aren't there to expose anyway (much fewer moving parts in the shifter). I also had heaps of problems with the new Ultegra mechanical front derailleur. It has a hinge on the top that is basically like a big mouth that captures dirt in and jams, stopping it from changing positions. Took about half a lap in one race for it to completely stop functioning. I guess this is all a bit moot if you are putting a strictly oad bike together, but there are some real design flaws for cx and gravel use.

i'm still avoiding di2 on the road bike though. Can feel confident that I can almost always fix a mechanical problem when miles from anything. Despite what everyone says, don't feel the same for electronic. Although next cross season on di2 might change my mind, guess I'll see.

CallumRD1
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:54 pm

by CallumRD1

rynogee wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:20 pm
the latest Ultegra hydro mechanical shifter is heavy, and a bit bulbous. I had problems with it on a cx bike because the guts of it are very exposed to mud and crap, and the rubber hoods were really loose at the top (wouldn't sit in the grooves) and exposed and loose at the bottom. They also had a strange bite point and feel when braking. Repeated lever strokes in somewhat short succession changed the bite point (increasing firmness, less travel to the bite point). Not sure if this was a design 'feature' but I hated the feel (bite point different every time you pull the lever). I don't know if the same phenomenon applies to di2 hydro shifters (DA or ultegra).

I am moving to Ultegra di2 for cross/gravel bike. The shifters feel waaay nicer in the hand and are much lighter. Plus the guts aren't there to expose anyway (much fewer moving parts in the shifter). I also had heaps of problems with the new Ultegra mechanical front derailleur. It has a hinge on the top that is basically like a big mouth that captures dirt in and jams, stopping it from changing positions. Took about half a lap in one race for it to completely stop functioning. I guess this is all a bit moot if you are putting a strictly oad bike together, but there are some real design flaws for cx and gravel use.

i'm still avoiding di2 on the road bike though. Can feel confident that I can almost always fix a mechanical problem when miles from anything. Despite what everyone says, don't feel the same for electronic. Although next cross season on di2 might change my mind, guess I'll see.

This means that you have some air in the system. I found my 685 shifters quite susceptible to this issue but when bled carefully it vanished. After a good bleed, I can go more than a year without needing to reblead the system.

SilentDrone
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:55 pm

by SilentDrone

CallumRD1 wrote:
rynogee wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:20 pm
the latest Ultegra hydro mechanical shifter is heavy, and a bit bulbous. I had problems with it on a cx bike because the guts of it are very exposed to mud and crap, and the rubber hoods were really loose at the top (wouldn't sit in the grooves) and exposed and loose at the bottom. They also had a strange bite point and feel when braking. Repeated lever strokes in somewhat short succession changed the bite point (increasing firmness, less travel to the bite point). Not sure if this was a design 'feature' but I hated the feel (bite point different every time you pull the lever). I don't know if the same phenomenon applies to di2 hydro shifters (DA or ultegra).

I am moving to Ultegra di2 for cross/gravel bike. The shifters feel waaay nicer in the hand and are much lighter. Plus the guts aren't there to expose anyway (much fewer moving parts in the shifter). I also had heaps of problems with the new Ultegra mechanical front derailleur. It has a hinge on the top that is basically like a big mouth that captures dirt in and jams, stopping it from changing positions. Took about half a lap in one race for it to completely stop functioning. I guess this is all a bit moot if you are putting a strictly oad bike together, but there are some real design flaws for cx and gravel use.

i'm still avoiding di2 on the road bike though. Can feel confident that I can almost always fix a mechanical problem when miles from anything. Despite what everyone says, don't feel the same for electronic. Although next cross season on di2 might change my mind, guess I'll see.

This means that you have some air in the system. I found my 685 shifters quite susceptible to this issue but when bled carefully it vanished. After a good bleed, I can go more than a year without needing to reblead the system.
I have wondered whether Shimano uses their servo wave technology in these hydro brakes. This description sounds like how the servo wave operates. Servo wave is touted as a feature in the XTR Trail and XT mountain bike brakes, but I didn’t like it. When I switched to XTR Race which is linear non-servo wave it was so much better.

Anyway, I’ve been using the 9120 hydro mechanical groupset for a couple of months now and I really like the disc brake feel. Seems quite linear and amply powerful to me. I would guess it’s non-servo wave, but I don’t know.


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rynogee
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:11 am
Location: DK

by rynogee

SilentDrone wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:20 pm
CallumRD1 wrote:
rynogee wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:20 pm
the latest Ultegra hydro mechanical shifter is heavy, and a bit bulbous. I had problems with it on a cx bike because the guts of it are very exposed to mud and crap, and the rubber hoods were really loose at the top (wouldn't sit in the grooves) and exposed and loose at the bottom. They also had a strange bite point and feel when braking. Repeated lever strokes in somewhat short succession changed the bite point (increasing firmness, less travel to the bite point). Not sure if this was a design 'feature' but I hated the feel (bite point different every time you pull the lever). I don't know if the same phenomenon applies to di2 hydro shifters (DA or ultegra).

I am moving to Ultegra di2 for cross/gravel bike. The shifters feel waaay nicer in the hand and are much lighter. Plus the guts aren't there to expose anyway (much fewer moving parts in the shifter). I also had heaps of problems with the new Ultegra mechanical front derailleur. It has a hinge on the top that is basically like a big mouth that captures dirt in and jams, stopping it from changing positions. Took about half a lap in one race for it to completely stop functioning. I guess this is all a bit moot if you are putting a strictly oad bike together, but there are some real design flaws for cx and gravel use.

i'm still avoiding di2 on the road bike though. Can feel confident that I can almost always fix a mechanical problem when miles from anything. Despite what everyone says, don't feel the same for electronic. Although next cross season on di2 might change my mind, guess I'll see.

This means that you have some air in the system. I found my 685 shifters quite susceptible to this issue but when bled carefully it vanished. After a good bleed, I can go more than a year without needing to reblead the system.
I have wondered whether Shimano uses their servo wave technology in these hydro brakes. This description sounds like how the servo wave operates. Servo wave is touted as a feature in the XTR Trail and XT mountain bike brakes, but I didn’t like it. When I switched to XTR Race which is linear non-servo wave it was so much better.

Anyway, I’ve been using the 9120 hydro mechanical groupset for a couple of months now and I really like the disc brake feel. Seems quite linear and amply powerful to me. I would guess it’s non-servo wave, but I don’t know.


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I think you just saved my bacon. I have a pair of ultegra di2 hydro levers I haven't fitted, and I just looked on the box and they say sero-wave (arrrrgh). They will be going back unless I can find out if you can disable this 'feature'.

srshaw
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:06 pm

by srshaw

Just looking. Isn't every shimano brake lever servo wave? Certainly looks it. It lists m9000 xtr. I happen to think my xt brakes are awesome, although they are previous generation m785 or something not m8000.

CallumRD1
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:54 pm

by CallumRD1

Servo wave changes the effective leverage ratio as the stroke progresses. It will NOT cause the bite point to move. If you can get the bite point to move with repeated pulls of the lever then you have air in the system and you need to improve your bleeding technique to purge all the air from the system. On a well bled system the bite point should feel the same each and every time you pull the lever and it should remain the same even as your pads wear. (I ride on Shimano 685 and 8070 hydraulic STIs with absolutely no issues, assuming I didn’t botch a bleed which does happen occasionally.)

bilwit
Posts: 983
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

SilentDrone wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:20 pm
Anyway, I’ve been using the 9120 hydro mechanical groupset for a couple of months now and I really like the disc brake feel. Seems quite linear and amply powerful to me. I would guess it’s non-servo wave, but I don’t know.
those massive hoods though :x

rynogee
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:11 am
Location: DK

by rynogee

CallumRD1 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:32 pm
Servo wave changes the effective leverage ratio as the stroke progresses. It will NOT cause the bite point to move. If you can get the bite point to move with repeated pulls of the lever then you have air in the system and you need to improve your bleeding technique to purge all the air from the system. On a well bled system the bite point should feel the same each and every time you pull the lever and it should remain the same even as your pads wear. (I ride on Shimano 685 and 8070 hydraulic STIs with absolutely no issues, assuming I didn’t botch a bleed which does happen occasionally.)
but in my case, the bite point came earlier not later (e.g. first pull of the lever felt 'normal' second pull of the lever the lever didn't travel as far before contact was made), and the brake was always hard as a rock once the pad hit the rotor. This is inconsistent with every other MTB brake I've had that has air in the lines, in which case the lever always came closer to the bar, and felt spongy once contact was made with the rotor.

I'm not saying it couldn't have been the bleed, but the behviour was not consistent with air issues in other brakes I've had.
Last edited by rynogee on Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

rynogee
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:11 am
Location: DK

by rynogee

srshaw wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:46 pm
Just looking. Isn't every shimano brake lever servo wave? Certainly looks it. It lists m9000 xtr. I happen to think my xt brakes are awesome, although they are previous generation m785 or something not m8000.
doesn't seem so, as far as I can tell. see: https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/technolo ... ave-action

definitely doesn't list all brakes, but maybe it isn't up to date or accurrate
Last edited by rynogee on Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

rynogee
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:11 am
Location: DK

by rynogee

CallumRD1 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:32 pm
Servo wave changes the effective leverage ratio as the stroke progresses. It will NOT cause the bite point to move. If you can get the bite point to move with repeated pulls of the lever then you have air in the system and you need to improve your bleeding technique to purge all the air from the system. On a well bled system the bite point should feel the same each and every time you pull the lever and it should remain the same even as your pads wear. (I ride on Shimano 685 and 8070 hydraulic STIs with absolutely no issues, assuming I didn’t botch a bleed which does happen occasionally.)
so to confirm, you are on the ST-R8070 lever, and you are saying you have never had any feeling of a different bite point on repeated pulls of the lever (earlier, or later than the first stroke). My box with ST-R8070 definitely says servo wave on it, for what it's worth. I had the ST-R8020 (mechanical not di2) which also lists as servo wave, and that's the lever that had the issue I described.

CallumRD1
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:54 pm

by CallumRD1

rynogee wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:12 am
CallumRD1 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:32 pm
Servo wave changes the effective leverage ratio as the stroke progresses. It will NOT cause the bite point to move. If you can get the bite point to move with repeated pulls of the lever then you have air in the system and you need to improve your bleeding technique to purge all the air from the system. On a well bled system the bite point should feel the same each and every time you pull the lever and it should remain the same even as your pads wear. (I ride on Shimano 685 and 8070 hydraulic STIs with absolutely no issues, assuming I didn’t botch a bleed which does happen occasionally.)
so to confirm, you are on the ST-R8070 lever, and you are saying you have never had any feeling of a different bite point on repeated pulls of the lever (earlier, or later than the first stroke). My box with ST-R8070 definitely says servo wave on it, for what it's worth. I had the ST-R8020 (mechanical not di2) which also lists as servo wave, and that's the lever that had the issue I described.
I am on the ST-R8070 lever and when properly bled, I never experience a different bite point on repeated pulls of the lever. Servo wave is a feature that will not cause the symptoms that you are experiencing. A poor blead will cause those symptoms.

SilentDrone
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:55 pm

by SilentDrone

rynogee wrote:
srshaw wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:46 pm
Just looking. Isn't every shimano brake lever servo wave? Certainly looks it. It lists m9000 xtr. I happen to think my xt brakes are awesome, although they are previous generation m785 or something not m8000.
doesn't seem so, as far as I can tell. see: https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/technolo ... ave-action

definitely doesn't list all brakes, but maybe it isn't up to date or accurrate
As shown in the link, the M9000 XTR Race is not servo wave. Their top of line brake. Did they leave it out to save weight or because the pros didn’t want it?


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by Weenie


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