Once you figure out what it is it's not exactly hard to push the cable in. When you think about it, the solution is a lot easier to fix than mechanical.fromtrektocolnago wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:24 pmi was biking in france this sept and someone on a new di2 bike had a shifting failure nobody could figure out for a few hours. turns out a connector got loose. i'll stick with my 9000 mechanical. you can laugh at this , but this stuff does happenpdlpsher1 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:22 pm+1. I have both. And I could live with either system. I get occasional mis-shifts on my mechanical group but it's not like it ruined the fun of the ride.fromtrektocolnago wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:13 pmComparing di2 to mecanical is apples to oranges. preferences are personal. Really depends if you prefer the simplicity of mechanical or the techiness and shifting ease of di2. personally i like mechanical. electronic is anathema to what cycling should be in my book. others will of course differ. But in any response you are inviting that bias.
I think what makes the decision so difficult for the OP is that he's comparing two systems that roughly costs the same, and each system has its pluses and minues
DA 9100 mechanical vs Ultegra Di2 R8000 - Build Advice
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I have this setup on my road bike and works just fine. Shimano says that they're compatible. Compared to 9100 the 9000 big ring is in the same spot but the small ring is only .7mm from where the 9100 is.adilosnave wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:23 pmBe careful combining the DA 9000 crankset with the latest Di2 front derailleurs. They aren't made to work perfectly together. Different spacing.
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Is anyone with an R8050 front mech able to measure the height and depth from the clamp bolt for me? I can't get the etap front mech high enough on the ViAS to run a 53t Q-ring and am tempted to sell the Etap and put R8050 on it
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the latest Ultegra hydro mechanical shifter is heavy, and a bit bulbous. I had problems with it on a cx bike because the guts of it are very exposed to mud and crap, and the rubber hoods were really loose at the top (wouldn't sit in the grooves) and exposed and loose at the bottom. They also had a strange bite point and feel when braking. Repeated lever strokes in somewhat short succession changed the bite point (increasing firmness, less travel to the bite point). Not sure if this was a design 'feature' but I hated the feel (bite point different every time you pull the lever). I don't know if the same phenomenon applies to di2 hydro shifters (DA or ultegra).
I am moving to Ultegra di2 for cross/gravel bike. The shifters feel waaay nicer in the hand and are much lighter. Plus the guts aren't there to expose anyway (much fewer moving parts in the shifter). I also had heaps of problems with the new Ultegra mechanical front derailleur. It has a hinge on the top that is basically like a big mouth that captures dirt in and jams, stopping it from changing positions. Took about half a lap in one race for it to completely stop functioning. I guess this is all a bit moot if you are putting a strictly oad bike together, but there are some real design flaws for cx and gravel use.
i'm still avoiding di2 on the road bike though. Can feel confident that I can almost always fix a mechanical problem when miles from anything. Despite what everyone says, don't feel the same for electronic. Although next cross season on di2 might change my mind, guess I'll see.
I am moving to Ultegra di2 for cross/gravel bike. The shifters feel waaay nicer in the hand and are much lighter. Plus the guts aren't there to expose anyway (much fewer moving parts in the shifter). I also had heaps of problems with the new Ultegra mechanical front derailleur. It has a hinge on the top that is basically like a big mouth that captures dirt in and jams, stopping it from changing positions. Took about half a lap in one race for it to completely stop functioning. I guess this is all a bit moot if you are putting a strictly oad bike together, but there are some real design flaws for cx and gravel use.
i'm still avoiding di2 on the road bike though. Can feel confident that I can almost always fix a mechanical problem when miles from anything. Despite what everyone says, don't feel the same for electronic. Although next cross season on di2 might change my mind, guess I'll see.
rynogee wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:20 pmthe latest Ultegra hydro mechanical shifter is heavy, and a bit bulbous. I had problems with it on a cx bike because the guts of it are very exposed to mud and crap, and the rubber hoods were really loose at the top (wouldn't sit in the grooves) and exposed and loose at the bottom. They also had a strange bite point and feel when braking. Repeated lever strokes in somewhat short succession changed the bite point (increasing firmness, less travel to the bite point). Not sure if this was a design 'feature' but I hated the feel (bite point different every time you pull the lever). I don't know if the same phenomenon applies to di2 hydro shifters (DA or ultegra).
I am moving to Ultegra di2 for cross/gravel bike. The shifters feel waaay nicer in the hand and are much lighter. Plus the guts aren't there to expose anyway (much fewer moving parts in the shifter). I also had heaps of problems with the new Ultegra mechanical front derailleur. It has a hinge on the top that is basically like a big mouth that captures dirt in and jams, stopping it from changing positions. Took about half a lap in one race for it to completely stop functioning. I guess this is all a bit moot if you are putting a strictly oad bike together, but there are some real design flaws for cx and gravel use.
i'm still avoiding di2 on the road bike though. Can feel confident that I can almost always fix a mechanical problem when miles from anything. Despite what everyone says, don't feel the same for electronic. Although next cross season on di2 might change my mind, guess I'll see.
This means that you have some air in the system. I found my 685 shifters quite susceptible to this issue but when bled carefully it vanished. After a good bleed, I can go more than a year without needing to reblead the system.
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I have wondered whether Shimano uses their servo wave technology in these hydro brakes. This description sounds like how the servo wave operates. Servo wave is touted as a feature in the XTR Trail and XT mountain bike brakes, but I didn’t like it. When I switched to XTR Race which is linear non-servo wave it was so much better.CallumRD1 wrote:rynogee wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:20 pmthe latest Ultegra hydro mechanical shifter is heavy, and a bit bulbous. I had problems with it on a cx bike because the guts of it are very exposed to mud and crap, and the rubber hoods were really loose at the top (wouldn't sit in the grooves) and exposed and loose at the bottom. They also had a strange bite point and feel when braking. Repeated lever strokes in somewhat short succession changed the bite point (increasing firmness, less travel to the bite point). Not sure if this was a design 'feature' but I hated the feel (bite point different every time you pull the lever). I don't know if the same phenomenon applies to di2 hydro shifters (DA or ultegra).
I am moving to Ultegra di2 for cross/gravel bike. The shifters feel waaay nicer in the hand and are much lighter. Plus the guts aren't there to expose anyway (much fewer moving parts in the shifter). I also had heaps of problems with the new Ultegra mechanical front derailleur. It has a hinge on the top that is basically like a big mouth that captures dirt in and jams, stopping it from changing positions. Took about half a lap in one race for it to completely stop functioning. I guess this is all a bit moot if you are putting a strictly oad bike together, but there are some real design flaws for cx and gravel use.
i'm still avoiding di2 on the road bike though. Can feel confident that I can almost always fix a mechanical problem when miles from anything. Despite what everyone says, don't feel the same for electronic. Although next cross season on di2 might change my mind, guess I'll see.
This means that you have some air in the system. I found my 685 shifters quite susceptible to this issue but when bled carefully it vanished. After a good bleed, I can go more than a year without needing to reblead the system.
Anyway, I’ve been using the 9120 hydro mechanical groupset for a couple of months now and I really like the disc brake feel. Seems quite linear and amply powerful to me. I would guess it’s non-servo wave, but I don’t know.
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I think you just saved my bacon. I have a pair of ultegra di2 hydro levers I haven't fitted, and I just looked on the box and they say sero-wave (arrrrgh). They will be going back unless I can find out if you can disable this 'feature'.SilentDrone wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:20 pmI have wondered whether Shimano uses their servo wave technology in these hydro brakes. This description sounds like how the servo wave operates. Servo wave is touted as a feature in the XTR Trail and XT mountain bike brakes, but I didn’t like it. When I switched to XTR Race which is linear non-servo wave it was so much better.CallumRD1 wrote:rynogee wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:20 pmthe latest Ultegra hydro mechanical shifter is heavy, and a bit bulbous. I had problems with it on a cx bike because the guts of it are very exposed to mud and crap, and the rubber hoods were really loose at the top (wouldn't sit in the grooves) and exposed and loose at the bottom. They also had a strange bite point and feel when braking. Repeated lever strokes in somewhat short succession changed the bite point (increasing firmness, less travel to the bite point). Not sure if this was a design 'feature' but I hated the feel (bite point different every time you pull the lever). I don't know if the same phenomenon applies to di2 hydro shifters (DA or ultegra).
I am moving to Ultegra di2 for cross/gravel bike. The shifters feel waaay nicer in the hand and are much lighter. Plus the guts aren't there to expose anyway (much fewer moving parts in the shifter). I also had heaps of problems with the new Ultegra mechanical front derailleur. It has a hinge on the top that is basically like a big mouth that captures dirt in and jams, stopping it from changing positions. Took about half a lap in one race for it to completely stop functioning. I guess this is all a bit moot if you are putting a strictly oad bike together, but there are some real design flaws for cx and gravel use.
i'm still avoiding di2 on the road bike though. Can feel confident that I can almost always fix a mechanical problem when miles from anything. Despite what everyone says, don't feel the same for electronic. Although next cross season on di2 might change my mind, guess I'll see.
This means that you have some air in the system. I found my 685 shifters quite susceptible to this issue but when bled carefully it vanished. After a good bleed, I can go more than a year without needing to reblead the system.
Anyway, I’ve been using the 9120 hydro mechanical groupset for a couple of months now and I really like the disc brake feel. Seems quite linear and amply powerful to me. I would guess it’s non-servo wave, but I don’t know.
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Servo wave changes the effective leverage ratio as the stroke progresses. It will NOT cause the bite point to move. If you can get the bite point to move with repeated pulls of the lever then you have air in the system and you need to improve your bleeding technique to purge all the air from the system. On a well bled system the bite point should feel the same each and every time you pull the lever and it should remain the same even as your pads wear. (I ride on Shimano 685 and 8070 hydraulic STIs with absolutely no issues, assuming I didn’t botch a bleed which does happen occasionally.)
those massive hoods thoughSilentDrone wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:20 pmAnyway, I’ve been using the 9120 hydro mechanical groupset for a couple of months now and I really like the disc brake feel. Seems quite linear and amply powerful to me. I would guess it’s non-servo wave, but I don’t know.
but in my case, the bite point came earlier not later (e.g. first pull of the lever felt 'normal' second pull of the lever the lever didn't travel as far before contact was made), and the brake was always hard as a rock once the pad hit the rotor. This is inconsistent with every other MTB brake I've had that has air in the lines, in which case the lever always came closer to the bar, and felt spongy once contact was made with the rotor.CallumRD1 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:32 pmServo wave changes the effective leverage ratio as the stroke progresses. It will NOT cause the bite point to move. If you can get the bite point to move with repeated pulls of the lever then you have air in the system and you need to improve your bleeding technique to purge all the air from the system. On a well bled system the bite point should feel the same each and every time you pull the lever and it should remain the same even as your pads wear. (I ride on Shimano 685 and 8070 hydraulic STIs with absolutely no issues, assuming I didn’t botch a bleed which does happen occasionally.)
I'm not saying it couldn't have been the bleed, but the behviour was not consistent with air issues in other brakes I've had.
Last edited by rynogee on Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
doesn't seem so, as far as I can tell. see: https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/technolo ... ave-action
definitely doesn't list all brakes, but maybe it isn't up to date or accurrate
Last edited by rynogee on Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
so to confirm, you are on the ST-R8070 lever, and you are saying you have never had any feeling of a different bite point on repeated pulls of the lever (earlier, or later than the first stroke). My box with ST-R8070 definitely says servo wave on it, for what it's worth. I had the ST-R8020 (mechanical not di2) which also lists as servo wave, and that's the lever that had the issue I described.CallumRD1 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:32 pmServo wave changes the effective leverage ratio as the stroke progresses. It will NOT cause the bite point to move. If you can get the bite point to move with repeated pulls of the lever then you have air in the system and you need to improve your bleeding technique to purge all the air from the system. On a well bled system the bite point should feel the same each and every time you pull the lever and it should remain the same even as your pads wear. (I ride on Shimano 685 and 8070 hydraulic STIs with absolutely no issues, assuming I didn’t botch a bleed which does happen occasionally.)
I am on the ST-R8070 lever and when properly bled, I never experience a different bite point on repeated pulls of the lever. Servo wave is a feature that will not cause the symptoms that you are experiencing. A poor blead will cause those symptoms.rynogee wrote: ↑Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:12 amso to confirm, you are on the ST-R8070 lever, and you are saying you have never had any feeling of a different bite point on repeated pulls of the lever (earlier, or later than the first stroke). My box with ST-R8070 definitely says servo wave on it, for what it's worth. I had the ST-R8020 (mechanical not di2) which also lists as servo wave, and that's the lever that had the issue I described.CallumRD1 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:32 pmServo wave changes the effective leverage ratio as the stroke progresses. It will NOT cause the bite point to move. If you can get the bite point to move with repeated pulls of the lever then you have air in the system and you need to improve your bleeding technique to purge all the air from the system. On a well bled system the bite point should feel the same each and every time you pull the lever and it should remain the same even as your pads wear. (I ride on Shimano 685 and 8070 hydraulic STIs with absolutely no issues, assuming I didn’t botch a bleed which does happen occasionally.)
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As shown in the link, the M9000 XTR Race is not servo wave. Their top of line brake. Did they leave it out to save weight or because the pros didn’t want it?rynogee wrote:doesn't seem so, as far as I can tell. see: https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/technolo ... ave-action
definitely doesn't list all brakes, but maybe it isn't up to date or accurrate
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