Madone Disc Spotted

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1759
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

jlok wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:37 am
so we need to have a balance between rr and aero as they are both a function of effective tire width on a particular tire rim combination. fast ride near 40kph will benefit more from aero while slower rides like 30kph will have greater influence from rr... imho
It's not so much about rolling resistance but comfort. Aero is great, rolling efficiency is great, but after 200km, if your ass hurts, your hands hurt, etc. you'll be fatigued and putting out less power.

So 28mm measured tires on 29mm wide rims with 21mm bead hooks makes a whole lot of sense. If you're giving up a couple of watts at low yaw angles, it really doesn't even matter that much because for the majority of the race you will be at endurance pace or protected inside a peloton. Wider tires with lower pressures also corner significantly better, which could be key at the end of a stage.

wingguy
Posts: 4193
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

spartan wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:00 pm
only independent disc road aero tests done so far. 3t internal width is a mere 18mm but delivers the best aero.
No shit dude, it was 15 - 20mm deeper than everything else on test :roll: . I'm gonna go with 'profile depth trumps internal width' any day when it comes to aero influences.

by Weenie


Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Except for the elephant in the room that enve braking is sub par or requires bulk pad consumption while costing more than basically every other wheel on the market.

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TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

My ENVEs brake as well as all my other disc-brake wheels. :]


jlok
Posts: 674
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

TobinHatesYou wrote:
jlok wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:37 am
so we need to have a balance between rr and aero as they are both a function of effective tire width on a particular tire rim combination. fast ride near 40kph will benefit more from aero while slower rides like 30kph will have greater influence from rr... imho
It's not so much about rolling resistance but comfort. Aero is great, rolling efficiency is great, but after 200km, if your ass hurts, your hands hurt, etc. you'll be fatigued and putting out less power.

So 28mm measured tires on 29mm wide rims with 21mm bead hooks makes a whole lot of sense. If you're giving up a couple of watts at low yaw angles, it really doesn't even matter that much because for the majority of the race you will be at endurance pace or protected inside a peloton. Wider tires with lower pressures also corner significantly better, which could be key at the end of a stage.
well... it's one more thing to balance then and I think it's up to individual to lean toward minimizing "hurts". For me I don't.

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Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Sorry should have said Enve in general. To many froth tops

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spartan
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Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:52 am

by spartan

wingguy wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:58 am
spartan wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:00 pm
only independent disc road aero tests done so far. 3t internal width is a mere 18mm but delivers the best aero.
No shit dude, it was 15 - 20mm deeper than everything else on test :roll: . I'm gonna go with 'profile depth trumps internal width' any day when it comes to aero influences.
really. look at this data from Bontrager. the 28mm depth wheel is more aero than the zipp 303 at 45mm.

Image
Current Rides:

2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL 0 DI2 9150

wingguy
Posts: 4193
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

spartan wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:44 pm
really. look at this data from Bontrager. the 28mm depth wheel is more aero than the zipp 303 at 45mm.
Ok... so to support your claim that wide internal isn’t better, and 17mm int / 27mm ext is gold, you’re using data that shows a 17mm int / 28mm ext wheel being beaten by a much shallower 21mm int / 27mm ext wheel?

Sorry dude, but do you want to have this argument with yourself first, then come back to us when you’ve decided what your own opinion is? :wink:

Hexsense
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

wingguy wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:46 pm

Ok... so to support your claim that wide internal isn’t better, and 17mm int / 27mm ext is gold, you’re using data that shows a 17mm int / 28mm ext wheel being beaten by a much shallower 21mm int / 27mm ext wheel?

Sorry dude, but do you want to have this argument with yourself first, then come back to us when you’ve decided what your own opinion is? :wink:
The test result is indeed look fishy but if i need to guess (and believe bontrager :?: )
It's the Rim profile?
Image
Bontrager rims are widest at brake track-> brake track is at 27mm.
Zipp are toroidal U-shape which is widest in the center, hence the brake track itself is narrower than 28mm ?

this is familiar argument. Venn in this topic: viewtopic.php?f=113&t=131368)
said Toroidal U-shaped are very good in narrow tire era. But the design require fair amount of rim wider than the tire, hence Venn use U-shape that is widest at brake track for their Venn 507 (50.7mm deep, 28mm external, 21mm internal) instead, to not building a rim extremely wide. This is also the case for Enve SES 4.5 AR Disc where they are widest at brake track.

sethjs
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:02 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by sethjs

[/quote]
I can see a revised rim brake Madone making an appearance. From the looks of the photo, there are minimal changes to the rear-end of the Madone, with the changes limited to the disc brakes.
[/quote]

Hmm...if you look closely, I think the chainstay intersection with the seat tube is very different from the current Madone design. Looks to have a rather substantial "kink" on the disc prototype.

MisterNoChain
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:29 pm
Location: Belgium

by MisterNoChain

Madone disc at the Dauphine Image
Last edited by MisterNoChain on Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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themidge
Posts: 856
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:19 pm
Location: Freeedooom!

by themidge

Dang, that is THICC, the downtube is almost the same diameter as a water bottle! Overall, it looks to me to be pretty similar to the rim brake version, except the seat cluster looks bulkier. That red seatpost looks good too.

jackc
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:22 pm

by jackc

From Trek's fb
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joejack951
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Location: Wilmington, DE

by joejack951

^ Odd to see them using XTR rotors. Not as odd as my Campy mechanical bike with the same rotors, but still strange given the availability of actual Dura Ace rotors.

by Weenie


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