alto's carbon clincher shootout test

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
BobbySweeting
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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:37 am

by BobbySweeting

ergott: Hmm, so you're saying that hitting it repeatedly made it do better than if we just hit it once at 220J? I suppose anything is possible, haha. But I'm not so sure that our spoke tension is changing, although I can't say with certainty because we didn't monitor it throughout the test. But I will say that we pre-stress every wheel manually and with a pneumatic press (see our facebook page for video) to simulate the first week of use. That way you don't have to "touch up" your wheels after the first few rides. I assure you that our wheel builders are the best in the business in this regard.

Between that, the q-let nipple washers, and the previous run on the brake track test, I'd be shocked if that wheel could settle any more than it already had. To me, it's only the second day of filming that sounds weird. The 130-220J drops sound identical to the 40-50J drops, I think, but I'm getting old and my ears aren't great anymore, lol.

I also don't believe that lower spoke tension will help a wheel survive this test. It would be the opposite. The spokes are providing structure to the rim and keeping it from deforming. If you watch the 225J drop, you'll see what happens when spoke tension is decreased, haha. The rim tacos and everything went south very quickly.

I really think it was just something that we must have done with the equipment and lav mic. If we find a scratched post-build rim in QC then we'll throw it in there fresh and drop it at 220J so that you can see! Please shoot us a message through our contact page so that I have your email, and I'll send it your way.

Thanks!

Flrider
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Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:09 am

by Flrider

I can't wait for the video of when you buy a shop fan at McMaster and do wind tunnel testing showing that you are 5 minutes faster per mile compared to every other wheel out there.

BobbySweeting
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:37 am

by BobbySweeting

Flrider: Haha, is that a knock on our test jig? Yes, we choose to make our testing equipment because we're capable of doing so. It's fairly common in order to get the exact specifications that you're looking for. For example, Enve did a nice job with their handlebar jig! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcSqTlkvkj0

We also do not know how any of the other brands would do in this test (other than Boyd, since he posted his test video), as we chose not to include them this time. So we don't have a basis for comparison and can't claim to be best. Although a lot of people have asked to see the other heat failed rims in the impact test, so maybe we'll do a few of them out of curiosity, haha.

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ergott
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by ergott

Pitch is a very reliable method for determining that there's a tension delta. The pitch for that last few impacts is very low. That definitely changes how the rim will behave in those impacts. Spokes deflecting allow the rim to move even if it's fractions of a mm. That still absorbs energy.


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BdaGhisallo
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by BdaGhisallo

ergott wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:37 am
Pitch is a very reliable method for determining that there's a tension delta. The pitch for that last few impacts is very low. That definitely changes how the rim will behave in those impacts. Spokes deflecting allow the rim to move even if it's fractions of a mm. That still absorbs energy.


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Eric,

What are your thoughts on the Alto rear hub flange design. Will it, in your experience, deliver the touted lateral stiffness benefits? Is that really tall drive side flange an improvement over other hubs out there, like the Wheels Mfg hub, for building laterally stiff wheels?

spartan
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by spartan

Alto can you send a wheel to ergott wheels for "testing". if he is impressed he can offer it to his clients. btw his website has not been updated since 2013. so don't know what rims he offers to his clients.

btw are any major cycling publications reviewing your wheels. tour mag in germany ?
Current Rides:

2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL 0 DI2 9150

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ergott
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by ergott

BdaGhisallo wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:18 pm

Eric,

What are your thoughts on the Alto rear hub flange design. Will it, in your experience, deliver the touted lateral stiffness benefits? Is that really tall drive side flange an improvement over other hubs out there, like the Wheels Mfg hub, for building laterally stiff wheels?
I haven't measured to verify what's posted, but if they are correct the flange spacing/diameter concept is an interesting idea. I compared a typical alloy rim depth ERD, but the results in left/right tension balance and spoke angle difference doesn't significantly change. It's really the lacing that makes the significant improvement in spoke angle. If you were to compare 24 2X on the right side to the Wheels hub the Wheels is higher at 3.6deg vs 3.4deg. If you consider that lacing the spokes all heads in increases the theoretical flange spacing by about 2.5mm (half the flange thickness and half the spoke thickness) you get about 18.5mm. Using that result in the calc does put it ahead at 3.9deg. Tension balance in that configuration is about the same with the left spokes about 49% of the right side tension.

The internal design of the Wheels hub is not to be ignored though. The secret to its success is having the outer bearings that support the axle closer to the dropouts than any other design. Just like the benefit of outboard bearings in a crank/bottom bracket setup, minimizing unsupported axle makes the overall design stiffer as well. Those differences are not something I have the facilities to measure.

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ergott
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by ergott

spartan wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:06 pm
Alto can you send a wheel to ergott wheels for "testing". if he is impressed he can offer it to his clients. btw his website has not been updated since 2013. so don't know what rims he offers to his clients.

btw are any major cycling publications reviewing your wheels. tour mag in germany ?
Yeah my website sucks big time. Since every set I build is different than the last I find it easier to show new builds on my Facebook and Instagram. I keep the site up there mainly as a portal for contacting me, but I seriously need to do something about it;-) I offer whatever I see out there that performs well for the client's needs. I can get pretty much anything that's sold as an individual component save for Zipp rims. www.wheelbuilder.com has exclusivity there.

From what I posted above, I definitely see potential advantages to the wheels. I don't sell comlete wheels that I haven't built up myself, but I wouldn't rule out recommending that hub to people. It's certainly a better design than the overhyped DT 240 from a performance standpoint, but that's a conversation for another thread.

BobbySweeting
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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:37 am

by BobbySweeting

It would be a pleasure to work with you, Eric. We sell individual hubs and rims to custom builders all over the world, it we can absolutely get you set up with anything that you need. If you send me a message through the contact page of our website, I'll send over our dealer application and pricing guide. You won't need to bring in a massive amount of inventory, you can simply purchase one item at Employee Purchase pricing as a demo sample. We try to make it as easy as possible for builders to give our products a try!

Thanks guys!

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

I can’t speak for whether the oversized hub flange actually works, but the axle design is really nice, rolls supremely smooth while also being easy to maintain. Out of the box they rolled longer than my White Industries CLDs in my hands, though that is of course an unloaded scenario.

coachboyd
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by coachboyd

BobbySweeting wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:08 am
We also do not know how any of the other brands would do in this test (other than Boyd, since he posted his test video),
I will add this, and this is not meant to be a knock to anything you are doing.
I do not think we can compare the impact testing in the video that you posted to the one we posted.
In your video you claimed that Topkey is testing and making the rims to pass 90 joules. This is actually really good and well beyond what the vast majority of any other rims will handle! We have gone through testing a lot of rims on a jig that is very similar to one that Topkey would have. Most mountain bike rims are finally cracking anywhere between 75 to 110 joules depending on the intended purpose.

If Topkey is saying the rims are rated to 90 joules and all of a sudden your testing shows over 200, that is not necessarily a good thing.
I know Mavic was being a bit snarky in their post to your heat testing video when they stated that if you develop a test and build a rig that shows your rims to be 10X better than anything out there, maybe you should question the validity of the test.

But it's good advice.

For instance, if I went to a few doctors and they weighed me on a professional scale and all of them said I weighed 170 pounds, but then I built a scale in my house that said I weighed 140 pounds, I wouldn't go around telling everybody I weighed 140 pounds.

Even though it'd be great to be back at that old race weight!
http://www.boydcycling.com The Handcrafted Revolution

spartan
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Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:52 am

by spartan

[deleted, keep it civil and constructive]


joejack951: Please keep in mind that our rims are tested twice (once at Topkey on a machine similar to the factory Boyd works with) and again in Sarasota to corroborate the results. Our new rims are tested to 250J before failure, but we expected the compromised rim to fail well below 220J!
Current Rides:

2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL 0 DI2 9150

tonytourist
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by tonytourist

@spartan I'm confused, do you work for Alto?

spartan
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Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:52 am

by spartan

no i don't work for alto...funny :)

just don't like boyd alway doubting the engineering capabilities of a real engineer with distinct IP.

boyd just design the proprietary shape of their rims and outsources the engineering to taiwan. no technical background. he brings nothing to the wheel industry. full respect for enve/hed/zipp they design their own shit.

dark install hilarious video on #fakewheelcompanies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bb7eCgLbLI
Current Rides:

2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL 0 DI2 9150

coachboyd
in the industry
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by coachboyd

spartan wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:31 am


just don't like boyd alway doubting the engineering capabilities of a real engineer with distinct IP.

boyd just design the proprietary shape of their rims and outsources the engineering to taiwan. no technical background. he brings nothing to the wheel industry. full respect for enve/hed/zipp they design their own shit.

dark install hilarious video on #fakewheelcompanies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bb7eCgLbLI
It'd be funny if you were a fly on the wall in my last trip to China (just a few weeks ago). It goes way WAY beyond just doing our own shapes and asking a factory to produce for us. If that were the case I would never go over and meet with the factory (or even open new tooling). As it stands I go over to the factory at least 4 times a year and work with them.
I definitely rely on their expertise in carbon, and why wouldn't I? The guy who owns the factory was the first one to do bladder inflation for carbon fiber back in the 70s for tennis rackets. But we still work on a lot of projects together in regards to a lot more than just pure rim shape.

The Dark Install videos as funny as they may be, are entirely incorrect about what we do. A YouTube "personality" should not be the golden standard of accurate claims.
http://www.boydcycling.com The Handcrafted Revolution

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