alto's carbon clincher shootout test

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
djgarrett21
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:22 pm

by djgarrett21

BobbySweeting wrote:DjGarrett21: Regarding the rim brake vs disc brake thing, I certainly don't need to get into that with you. It's a long conversation that many many people have had, haha. I just wanted to give you my 2 cents and my personal opinion. I like disc brakes! I simply prefer rim brakes, and feel as though the disc brake system may have been pushed into the industry for reasons that aren't entirely performance related.

Regarding our testing: The independent party you seek would be Spark Wheel Works. They are a retailer and custom builder in California that sells every brand in the test. Please call Ryan Mason at Spark and he can confirm the unbiased and blind nature of this test. We were as shocked as everyone by the results, and honestly a bit disappointed. We wanted it to be close, or maybe even for someone to do better than the new Alto rim. I knew that would make it more believable for people at face value. When our rim went 40min and the next rim went 5.5min, I obviously knew people would be skeptical. Hell, so would I. But think about it this way: how would we be able to design a test so that we would smash everyone, if we didn't know ANYTHING about the other brands or how they would perform? We had one rim from each brand, and there is zero information online about how they would perform in a test like this. That's why we wanted to do it! But if you need verification, please call Ryan.

Our rims absolutely are filament wound, you will not find a parting line anywhere on the sidewall. I'm surprised that you work in the composites industry but cannot tell this from seeing an image of our rims, because it's fairly obvious. If you'd like, I can ask Topkey for a video of the rims being fed through the resin bath and into the feed and can send it your way!
Agree, I don't want to focus on rim vs disc.

When I say "test" I'm referring to the development of your resin, not the test in the video. There is a whole lot you can disclose about that development process as well as the properties and composition of your resin that would not compromise intellectual property.

Please post your filament winding video to this thread. Again, 17:50 of your test video which is the only closeup of your rims I can find shows a single sheet of uni, I don't see any tows which would be indicative of a winding process. If you are truly winding your wheels you must have some extreme tows - I don't see how that is possible on a bike wheel.
Last edited by djgarrett21 on Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

BobbySweeting
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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:37 am

by BobbySweeting

Calnago: Thanks for the detailed response! Obviously we tend to be in agreement, but we'll see where the industry takes us. As a smaller company, we can dictate advancements in technology but we can't always dictate purchasing trends, haha. When we went into this project we thought it would go one of two ways: we'll either prove that rim brakes can be nearly as durable as disc brakes and help to save that market, or it will all be for nothing and go up in flames with the rest of the carbon clincher rim brake industry. I hope and think it will be the former, simply based on the sales of our retailers from 2017, but we'll be happy and able to move forward either way!

by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

"It would mean the whole disc experiment on road bikes could come to an abrupt end, period."

That's the kind of absolute statement which sets me off. It's far more likely rim brakes will eventually disappear on high-end road bikes, not disc brakes.

Hypothetically, let's say I ride at 280w up Old La Honda Rd (5km, ~8%) here in the Bay Area at a body weight of 61kg and a bike weight of 7kg. That should take around 19:10 depending on a few other variables. Dropping .5kg shaves a whole 7 seconds off that time. For me those 7 lost seconds aren't worth the improved brake feel/modulation, all-weather performance, lifetime of the rim, improved profile, etc. I also find it weird that you mentioned thru-axles in a negative connotation. If they existed, I'd take a thru-axle rim-brake set-up over a QR rim-brake set-up.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:14 am, edited 3 times in total.

BobbySweeting
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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:37 am

by BobbySweeting

DjGarrett21: I completely understand your sentiment. Trust me, I want to shout the details of what we've done from the roof tops, because I'm immensely proud of it. But when we released this product our engineers and investors made the decision that we wouldn't disclose any information about the resin itself. I know that we could give you thermal conductivity numbers and things of that nature, but I will always be pressed for more information until I end up divulging too much. For that reason, I've been forced to simply show people the data from the rim brake test and leave it at that. I'm very sorry.

I will reach out to Topkey tonight about the video, I'm actually going into a Skype meeting with them in a moment. I don't have a stock video to show you, but I'll ask them to take one that we can share with customers. Not a problem!

As far as photos go, I'm trying to find one that is close enough to see that there are no parting lines, but far enough away to show the whole wheel.... I think this will do it: This is our 2017 model, which was laid up as UD plies and clearly shows the parting lines: https://www.instagram.com/p/BRLuY0fg0BW ... ltocycling This is our 2018 filament wound model: https://www.instagram.com/p/BbiLWNeA-3x ... ltocycling. You can peruse our instagram page for more examples, but I think those are the best ones I have right now!
Last edited by BobbySweeting on Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

BobbySweeting
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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:37 am

by BobbySweeting

Tobin: I really want to cut a 15x142 thru axle rear hub... what are you thoughts on that? It's not possible right now because the Shimano freehub/cassette interface doesn't have a large enough diameter, but if we could partner with a component company to make the special cassette then I bet we could make it work. I guess the other problem would be actually having a bike to put it on.... Either way, we might have some fun cutting prototypes.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@TobinHatesYou: I realize that so many things annoy you but please tell me why you would take a thru axle rim brake system (if one existed) over a quick release. Keeping in mind that the only reason they had to go to thru axles for discs on road bikes is due to the assymetrical twisting on the forks and stays etc whereas this is not a factor with standard mount rim brakes, or direct mounts for that matter. Are you afraid your wheel will fall out?
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Calnago wrote:@TobinHatesYou: I realize that so many things annoy you but please tell me why you would take a thru axle rim brake system (if one existed) over a quick release. Keeping in mind that the only reason they had to go to thru axles for discs on road bikes is due to the assymetrical twisting on the forks and stays etc whereas this is not a factor with standard mount rim brakes, or direct mounts for that matter. Are you afraid your wheel will fall out?
The prime example is the spare/old bike being used on my CycleOps Hammer. If I tighten the QR too much it causes binding from the endcaps pushing in on the hub bearings. If I loosen the QR to the point where it doesn't do that, then the bike/drivetrain twists enough to cause rasping noises when I'm out of the saddle. TAs would help prevent this. It happens because the bike is anchored by a 50 pound trainer and there is a massive twisting load at the dropouts.
BobbySweeting wrote:Tobin: I really want to cut a 15x142 thru axle rear hub... what are you thoughts on that? It's not possible right now because the Shimano freehub/cassette interface doesn't have a large enough diameter, but if we could partner with a component company to make the special cassette then I bet we could make it work. I guess the other problem would be actually having a bike to put it on.... Either way, we might have some fun cutting prototypes.
What even uses 15x142mm? Fat Bikes? Are they XD freehub compatible or something?

BobbySweeting
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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:37 am

by BobbySweeting

Oh I have no idea, I don't think anything uses 15x142... It's just something that I'm guessing will happen eventually because it'll be stiffer than the 12mm. An XD freehub wouldn't work, it's diameter would also be too small. It would require a completely new freehub and cassette design, which we haven't started thinking about yet. We just like to try and "future proof" our designs as much as possible, and it's a fun game trying to guess where the cycling industry will go next. Haha.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Hmmm.... I know what you’re referring to but that’s an issue with your wheels/hubs and not the skewers.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Calnago wrote:Hmmm.... I know what you’re referring to but that’s an issue with your wheels/hubs and not the skewers.
It's a little bit an end-cap, hub-axle preload issue. It's A LOT a dropout issue. Basically the trainer is a stationary object and trying to force the bike to be when it would normally be sawing back and forth. The bike is trying very hard to pull itself out of the dropouts.

joejack951
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Location: Wilmington, DE

by joejack951

Calnago wrote:@TobinHatesYou: I realize that so many things annoy you but please tell me why you would take a thru axle rim brake system (if one existed) over a quick release. Keeping in mind that the only reason they had to go to thru axles for discs on road bikes is due to the assymetrical twisting on the forks and stays etc whereas this is not a factor with standard mount rim brakes, or direct mounts for that matter. Are you afraid your wheel will fall out?
I have been using a road disc brake setup since 2009 (front only, courtesy of a Winwood CX fork). I am using a quick release wheel and have somewhere around 25,000 miles on the frame/fork/wheel with zero issues. I have had to reset my quick release on a few occasions after removing the front wheel as getting the wheel back exactly where it was takes more care than with rim brakes. Thru axles eliminate this variability but they are by no means a necessity for road disc. There are plenty of MTB disc setups using quick release wheels, too. Thru axles eliminate fuss and for most of us non-pros that is worth more than saving a few seconds during a wheel swap.

djgarrett21
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:22 pm

by djgarrett21

BobbySweeting wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:09 am
DjGarrett21: I completely understand your sentiment. Trust me, I want to shout the details of what we've done from the roof tops, because I'm immensely proud of it. But when we released this product our engineers and investors made the decision that we wouldn't disclose any information about the resin itself. I know that we could give you thermal conductivity numbers and things of that nature, but I will always be pressed for more information until I end up divulging too much. For that reason, I've been forced to simply show people the data from the rim brake test and leave it at that. I'm very sorry.

I will reach out to Topkey tonight about the video, I'm actually going into a Skype meeting with them in a moment. I don't have a stock video to show you, but I'll ask them to take one that we can share with customers. Not a problem!

As far as photos go, I'm trying to find one that is close enough to see that there are no parting lines, but far enough away to show the whole wheel.... I think this will do it: This is our 2017 model, which was laid up as UD plies and clearly shows the parting lines: https://www.instagram.com/p/BRLuY0fg0BW ... ltocycling This is our 2018 filament wound model: https://www.instagram.com/p/BbiLWNeA-3x ... ltocycling. You can peruse our instagram page for more examples, but I think those are the best ones I have right now!
I'm still not seeing anything in your image that points to a winding process. It appears you are using a similar layup process to Venn's CTL rims. They have a single sheet of uni around the entire circumference of the wheel, or no parting lines as you would say. It is a hand-lay process, not filament winding.
http://www.venn-cycling.com/application ... cess_2.jpg

Going back to Venn, here is what I'd expect a filament wound wheel to look like:
https://www.bikerumor.com/wp-content/up ... -rim01.jpg
Here you can see individual windings/layers of material have been put down.

Regarding your resin, I will reiterate that you can share plenty of info that will not compromise your IP while showing that you have truly gone through a development process and settled on a solution.

From the limited amount of info I've seen I see no evidence that your wheels are filament wound or that they are fabricated from a proprietary resin. You are right that openness is important to the consumer, especially in the face of claims that appear far fetched. I'm in the market for a set of carbon disc wheels to put on a BMC frame I recently purchased. Your CCX40's seem right up my alley. Maybe I'll purchase a set someday if I'm proven wrong. For now I don't believe.

spartan
Posts: 1135
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:52 am

by spartan

carbon disc wheels do not require any high tech resin.

btw i do not understand why alto/enve/zipp charge so much for hookless carbon rims. the manufacturing is simplified and the msrp price should reflect this. anyways the chinese will dominate the market once the market goes all in on disc wheelsets.
the western companies have no advantage. aero shapes can easily be copied. most chinese rims meet/surpass uci impact tests.
Current Rides:

2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL 0 DI2 9150

spartan
Posts: 1135
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:52 am

by spartan

just checked the pacenti have similiar design to alto the price is 50% cheaper
nice job Pacenti.

$915.00

https://pacenticycledesign.com/collecti ... e-wheelset
Current Rides:

2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL 0 DI2 9150

BobbySweeting
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:37 am

by BobbySweeting

DJGarrett21: We will do our best to make you a believer! Topkey is hesitant to release a video of their process because it's proprietary. But I will try to take a video next time I'm there, as long as they're ok with it. In the meantime, if you purchase a CCX40 set I'll extend a 30 day money back guarantee to you. If it's not the best wheel set you've ever been on then you can return it for a full refund. We'd love to give you the chance to try them and tell everyone on the forum exactly how you feel about them!

Spartan: We have a maximum impact test video that will be released in the next couple of days via our social media channels and a few publications. Our new resin and construction processes are why we can offer a 5 year warranty and unlimited rider weight. I think this test will show you that it's not just about heat capacity for our rim brake products, but also about our disc brake rim performance and durability. That's what makes our products a bit more expensive, unfortunately. Please check out the test and I think you'll be pretty impressed!

by Weenie


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